"Fiscal cliff" efforts in disarray as U.S. lawmakers flee

Comments (68)
Dannyb2b wrote:

ll these problems with the budget can simply be bypassed. if the central bank was modified so it dealt directly with the public non debt stimulus could enter the economy instantly without increasing the debt load.

Dec 20, 2012 8:21pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Whipsplash wrote:

Repulsivecons blew the hell out of this, they couldn’t even get the votes for their own plan from their own party. See ya at the bottom of the cliff!
Vote every republican out of every office every chance you get!

Dec 20, 2012 8:21pm EST  --  Report as abuse
americanguy wrote:

Meanwhile the President, who ran on a platform of doing what he is doing and won the majority of the American vote, is going around the White House singing Tom Petty’s song “I won’t back down”.
I think most Republicans must be high on some type of drug because they really act insane.

Dec 20, 2012 8:37pm EST  --  Report as abuse
TheNewWorld wrote:

Boehner needs to go. He is the weakest majority leader the House has seen in decades. Say what you will about Pelosi or Gingrich, at least they could lead their own parties.

Dec 20, 2012 9:06pm EST  --  Report as abuse
RSaltyDog wrote:

The GOP (the Grand Old Party) is imploding. The GOP in a mass error allowed in the TEA that they should have dumped in 2010. The GOP is no more. What is left? Far, far, far radical right TEA party. It is one thing to be conservative and quite another to be short of facists and religious Christian Sharia law. As a post 35+ year Republican who is now an Indpendent, I see this as a sad day for the GOP to end this way. The GOP is no longer Grand.

Dec 20, 2012 9:13pm EST  --  Report as abuse
VonHell wrote:

If they are returning from holiday on 27… only 3 more days of pretending that the plan is not just keep the things the way they are while just increasing the debt cap…

Dec 20, 2012 9:14pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Demoman wrote:

How does John stay so tan?

Dec 20, 2012 9:14pm EST  --  Report as abuse
mijomitch wrote:

The dour sour old men are never going to go for anything that will help most of the country if it means raising their taxes even 1 cent.

Dec 20, 2012 9:15pm EST  --  Report as abuse
klondiker1 wrote:

I have to say the Republicans do have some morals or to go against there own party leader Boehner. I am so amazed how Boehner is able have the nerve to do this to all Americans. why is it so hard to get along with the other team. I would say that when the Republicans get the Presidents spot maybe someday they will run with there idea’s, but now it’s the the Democrats time. I really think that Boehner need’s to just step down and give his job to someone more qualified in the Republican pool. anyway yep see ya all at the bottom of the cliff if we live through the fall.

Dec 20, 2012 9:16pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Bunker555 wrote:

Another big win for Cantor. He will get the leadership now.

Dec 20, 2012 9:17pm EST  --  Report as abuse
ShiroiKarasu wrote:

Not surprising. Also, irrelevant. A Republican “plan b” wouldn’t have passed muster in the Senate. There are Democrats who need to be negotiated with to bring something to the table. I don’t like raising taxes. I don’t like how much money we’re spending. But the bottom line is, Democrats control the executive branch and the Senate. The Republicans need to play ball just enough that people don’t completely hate them, and build enough broad support that they can win a presidential election in 2016. If they play their cards right, we could see a repeat of the 2008 sweep of offices, but this time in red.

Dec 20, 2012 9:19pm EST  --  Report as abuse
My_Opinion_7 wrote:

Just exchange Grand for Grumpy Old Party. We are going over the cliff and it will be the end for many Republicans, it will also be an end to the 1% trying to make the middle class pay for everything. The Teabaggers should be considered a hate group and Karl Rove and Grover Norguist should both be charged with treason.

The crime of betraying one’s country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

We the people need to stand up to these people and see that justice is served. Rove and Norquist have tried their hardest to overthrow our political system and POTUS that they should have been locked up a long time ago.

Dec 20, 2012 9:34pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Gigimoderate wrote:

I almost feel sorry for Boehner, he is the leader of a bunch of Juvenile delinquents! The party of NO! They have voted out amost all Reasonable Repubulicans. Please vote out these tea party Radicals……vote in some Common sense Fiscal conservatives!

Dec 20, 2012 9:37pm EST  --  Report as abuse
pro2hd wrote:

President Obama, we voted for you with the understanding (the one you ran on) that the tax would be on anyone making over $250,000.00, is that not right? So, where is this $400,000.00 coming from? You cannot let these Republican zealots intimidate you like that! Stand your ground, man. Don’t let these idiots lead you around in circles. You won sir, and you have the American people behind you….stand your ground! As you can plainly see, they’re falling to pieces all around you. They can’t even get their own people to vote for the bill they made up so, what’s the problem?

Dec 20, 2012 9:39pm EST  --  Report as abuse
McBob08 wrote:

Seriously, Republicans! What twisted aversion to you have to wanting the economy bolstered? Why do you block taxes that the Rich have been dodging for decades? In the greatest financial booms in American history, the rich have always been taxed robustly; that is the secret. The economy depends on domestic spending, whether you like it or not. The Rich are NOT “Job Creators”; that myth was busted when the Bush Tax Cuts didn’t generate a single job. The fact of the matter is that Government Domestic Spending is the one and only Job Creator. It provides the money that allows companies to sell those infrastructure workers with the things they want and need. Domestic Spending is the basis of the entire economy, so when spending stops, the economy collapses. That is a reality that the Republican Party knows very well, but pretends that they don’t.

Your taxes are payment for services rendered. In hundreds of different ways, your government is providing you with the services and the environment that makes life possible in America, and your taxes pay for that. Would you dare to say that you shouldn’t pay for the services that you and the rest of your nation receives? That is what the Republicans are saying. Everyone, especially the rich, have benefited greatly from the services the government provides — it makes our lives possible — but the Republicans want those services for free. They want their cake, and to eat it too. They are selfish little brats that want everything for free, without paying a fair price for it. That kind of greed only hurts America.

Republicans are traitors to their own nation; they are plotting to make it fail!

Dec 20, 2012 9:41pm EST  --  Report as abuse
mikefromaz wrote:

Hahahaha! First the Republicans tied to beat President Obama by obstruction. Now they are beating each othr by obstruction. Life is good.

Dec 20, 2012 10:28pm EST  --  Report as abuse
fromthecenter wrote:

@thenewworld I am not sure that anyone could lead the republican party today. There are way too many extremists that would rather drive the country into the ground then compromise. Boehner and those that created the current day party share the blame of course. Personally, I’d like to see them take a beating. Maybe then they will move a little more toward the center and we wuld benefit from a true two party system where ideas are exchanged and compromises are reached.

Dec 20, 2012 10:34pm EST  --  Report as abuse

You want $1,000,000, they want $400,000. COMPROMISE and meet in the middle at $700,000 and let’s MOVE ON. Our government is run by children.

Dec 20, 2012 10:40pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Abulafiah wrote:

Yeah… this is really funny! The GOP are so busy being divisive that now they are dividing themselves.

The GOP are done. They missed their chance in 2008 when they should have admitted that they had messed up, admitted that their far-right policies don’t work, apologised, learned from it, and re-invented themselves as a credible political party.

Instead, they were too arrogant to admit they were wrong and said “Oh… we were not extremist enough!” and lurched even farther right.

Look how well that worked out…

Dec 20, 2012 10:42pm EST  --  Report as abuse
heidilee2 wrote:

These tea baggers are TRAITORS. Sold their oath to serve their country to the HIGHEST bidder. NEO CON ARTIST TRAITORS

Dec 20, 2012 10:43pm EST  --  Report as abuse
TommyPaine wrote:

So … Could this be what the Mayans had in mind? :-)

Dec 20, 2012 11:12pm EST  --  Report as abuse
misterjag wrote:

Those SNL skits in which Boehner was bullied were no exaggeration. LOL.

Dec 20, 2012 11:16pm EST  --  Report as abuse
damnit wrote:

This is unbelievable. This TeaVangelist faction of the Republican party has got to go before they take down the Republican party entirely. Further they need to check themselves, are they still Americans, or does their hatred of Obama overwhelm their loyalty to the United States of America?

Dec 20, 2012 11:24pm EST  --  Report as abuse
flashrooster wrote:

The saddest thing about all of this is that there are still Americans dumb enough to vote for these useless Republicans. It boggles the mind. They must stop sacrificing the country for their own extremist political motives. They have completely forgotten why they are there in Washington. It’s infuriating. If any other collection of individuals were doing this to our country it would be seen either as an act of economic terrorism or an act of war. Why don’t they just pass the d_mn tax increases on the wealthy and be done with it. The downside to what the Republicans are doing is far worse than any possible negative impact a tax increase might have. This is all about politics. There must be SOMETHING the American people can do to put an end to this homeland attack. We can start by calling our elected representatives. Everyone should. I am so sick of this crap.

Dec 20, 2012 11:32pm EST  --  Report as abuse
tougar wrote:

usa.wi.vet.4q: took the words right out of my mouth. It is the same “i’m right, you’re wrong” mentality from both sides that is displayed in these comments that stifles progress in our government.

Dec 20, 2012 11:43pm EST  --  Report as abuse
richinnc wrote:

I think we need Congress control more than gun control. Both parties are seeming to take glee in seeing how far off the middle ground they can be. Many of us can budget our shrinking income (shrinking thanks in part to the printing of more money). We know about NEED instead of WANT. Yet our “leaders” – both parties – are like little kids playing king of the mountain and we taxpayers are at the bottom of the pile. We need to increase the income (taxes) – but not dramatically for fear of increasing the recession. And there need’s to be a firm NO to the frills in the spending side.

Dec 21, 2012 12:06am EST  --  Report as abuse

@Pro2Hd- It’s called, “offering an olive branch” in the art and process of compromise; that’s where the $400k idea is coming from.

@Texas Blue- The prez is already meeting somewhere near the middle with the $400k.

It’s interesting that we seem to have well over 200 Republicans in the House who seem concerned about protecting only the 2% of Americans who make $250k or more.

We have 314 Million people, and they represent 6 million? Doesn’t add up, does it.

Having said that, in the end, we’re all going to pay, and I think everyone knows this deep down. Cut spending across the board by a modest percentage, and raise taxes equally modestly. Take it slow and steady, and maybe in a few decades we can get our finances and house in some manageable order.

One of the major flaws in our system, or I should say the other side of the coin of representative government, is that individual politicians must please their own constituents, usually at the detriment to the common good of the whole.

IOWs, a pol can’t win telling his district or state that he is going to vote to cut gov services and raise taxes to help balance the Nat’l budget and bring down debt and deficits.

It comes down to the attitude that, “Everybody must pay and do with less, except ME!” All reasonable people must know that that can’t work.

We could start by cutting our military defense expenditures, and demanding that the Europeans, the Japanese and the South Koreans, South Africa, and all other nations that benefit from the general Pax Americana to cough up their fair share of the enormous cost of maintaining that peace.

American jobs are being out-sourced, wages and salaries (for most) have stagnated for 30 years, and yet American taxpayers are given the burden of protecting the world. Why?

Dec 21, 2012 7:22am EST  --  Report as abuse
fromthecenter wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the President did compromise. He lowered raised the income level to let the bush tax cuts expire and he also put long term cuts to medicare and social security on the table.

Dec 21, 2012 7:38am EST  --  Report as abuse
Naksuthin wrote:

The Republican Congress currently has a job approval rating of 18%
That’s not as bad as it was a few months ago when it’s job approval ratings plunged to the lowest in recorded Congressional history….10%!!

18% means that even Republicans don’t think the Republican congress is doing it’s job!!!!

Meanwhile President Obama’s job approval ratings continue to climb …currently at 57%.

You would think that sooner or later the Republicans would get off their extremist high horse and compromise with President Obama…who has the support of the majority of Americans on the matter of taxing the rich.

But, alas, the extremist Republicans are still unable to come to an agreement….WITH THEMSELVES!!!!

Time for Bone-Er to resign

Dec 21, 2012 8:39am EST  --  Report as abuse

Republican, Democrate…not the issue.
The fact is we have a president who is supposed to be able to create a middle and make things work, reach an agreement. He is pushing off his responsibility and blaming republicans for his inadequacy.
If we have a president who can’t even reach an agreement & stop failure in his own country, what will all the other countries think…

Dec 21, 2012 9:34am EST  --  Report as abuse
bobber1956 wrote:

That was NOT a Republican plan. If it was a Republican plan it would have passed the House. That was a John Boehner caving to obama plan. We elected a Republican House to stand up to obama’s crap and when a plan that does that is introduced it will pass the House. Give them the top 1% some loopholes for about 1 tril, take about 2 tril in cuts (80% of that discretionary), leave the ceiling where it is. If obama does not want to do that walk away. BTW How much money would we have to work with if we quit giving it to muslim countries that want to kill us? Just a thought.

Dec 21, 2012 10:31am EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

Apparently Obama, Democrats and the liberal media have ZERO reverence for the fact that taxing the rich will not nearly solve our fiscal problems:

$6.7T deficit projected over the next ten years

$16T in current national debt

$1.4T of tax revenues Obama wants to raise

1.4T / (6.7T + 16T) = 6.16% of the problem resolved by taxes over the next 10 years and that doesn’t include the unfunded entitlement liabilities accruing that are set to make Medicare go bankrupt in 2024.

Don’t you think it’s about time Obama put forth a plan to address the other 93.84% of the problem?

Dec 21, 2012 10:36am EST  --  Report as abuse
SayHey wrote:

Most (almost all?) House Republicans got a lot more than 50.7% of the vote. They have to represent their constituents, most of whom, by the way, do pay taxes – unlike, perhaps, the constituents of some others.

Dec 21, 2012 11:12am EST  --  Report as abuse
americanguy wrote:

Evil people always self destruct at some time.
That is what is happening to the Republicans, they are self destructing.
I have never seen a bigger bunch of clueless arrogant idiots in my life as Republicans.
Republicans are doing everything possible to become meaningless and make Americans angry, and I have to ask, why?

Dec 21, 2012 11:20am EST  --  Report as abuse
bobber1956 wrote:

Well put.

Dec 21, 2012 11:20am EST  --  Report as abuse
PKFA wrote:

Did Boehner really expect to garner support from conservatives after his post-election committee purging? And after caving to the President? Seriously? This man is the most incompetent Speaker since Dennis Hastert.

Dec 21, 2012 11:26am EST  --  Report as abuse
flashrooster wrote:

SayHey: Obama won the election decisively and he made clear that he would see taxes go up on the wealthy. Democrats increased their numbers in both the Senate and the House. Democrats got more that a million votes than Republicans in the House. If we did not have gerrymandering, the House would be in Democratic hands. This is a national issue and the American people have made their voices clear.

The problem with the right is that they seem incapable of accepting reality. They are the party who still doesn’t believe in global warming even though the scientific community is unanimous on it and a third of the icecaps have melted. You are the people who took the lies told to us by the Bush Administration and backed a war that cost the lives of 4,500 US soldiers; countless Iraqi citizens dead; a trillion dollars of taxpayer money squandered; Iran, a more serious threat to US security, empowered; and a loss of US credibility in the world.

I realize that I could list a hundred factual reasons why the GOP is misguided, irrelevant, and has lost touch with reality, and it wouldn’t change your “thinking” one iota. The facts mean absolutely nothing to you. If I could convince you that facts matter, we wouldn’t be in the problem in the first place. So go ahead and twist the facts in whatever way allows you to continue existing in your neanderthal perspective. The rest of us have no choice but to grapple with reality. Fortunately, it appears that hope is on the horizon. The American people are waking up to the realization that the Republican party offers nothing useful for America’s future.

We have record debt. Now is not the time to retain historically low tax rates on the rich. A majority of Americans, as well as the rest of the world, know this to be true. You, my friend, are in the clueless minority.

Dec 21, 2012 11:45am EST  --  Report as abuse
USAPragmatist wrote:

@Motorcyclemama, the President has offered a compromise, it is easy to find with a simple Google search, so you are either just being ignorant or willfully ignorant. Boehner can not even get the radicals in his party to agree to a tax hike on people making over 1 million and you really expect Obama to ‘create a middle’? Laughable.

Dec 21, 2012 11:46am EST  --  Report as abuse
SchWI wrote:

Huelskamp, what an idiot. Did he see the election results at all?

“I am not going to compromise, I have been in DC for five minutes and everyone else should do what I want.”

The Republican Party is just doing a nose dive into oblivion.

Dec 21, 2012 11:46am EST  --  Report as abuse
AlkalineState wrote:

Today’s Headline:

“GOP’s Bohner Goes Limp, Withdraws Early”

Age kills. Stay young!

Dec 21, 2012 11:51am EST  --  Report as abuse
cautious123 wrote:

Boehner shouldn’t worry–Obama will eventually cave and give the Tea Partiers everything they are demanding. He’ll pay for tax breaks to the wealthy by throwing seniors and disabled veterans under the bus. After all, what’s a few more disgruntled progressives! Obama has better things to look forward to in 2016, when all those job offers from Wall Street will start pouring in. He’s their guy! Who needs the Koch brothers–we have a shill right in the White House.

Dec 21, 2012 12:01pm EST  --  Report as abuse
sjfella wrote:

C’mon people, you re-elected this inept government almost to the man. Too late to complain.

Dec 21, 2012 12:14pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

@flashrooster said: “We have record debt. Now is not the time to retain historically low tax rates on the rich. ”

And what about spending; conveniently not mentioned? You’ve learned form Obama’s playbook very quickly.

Dec 21, 2012 12:59pm EST  --  Report as abuse
zotdoc wrote:

I think we should go over the cliff. Any deal now will just be more taxes on the people and promises to cut spending sometime in the future, which will not happen. We are all americans and we should all be willing to pay higher taxes to support our country, and we should all be in favor of forced government spending cuts, since our leaders are incapable of making them themselves, the cliff is the only option. Vote against any commiecrat every chance you get! Viva la revolucion and power to the people!

Dec 21, 2012 1:17pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

Apparently Obama, Democrats and the liberal media have ZERO reverence for the fact that taxing the rich will not nearly solve our fiscal problems:

$6.7T deficit projected over the next ten years

$16T in current national debt

$1.4T of tax revenues Obama wants to raise

1.4T / (6.7T + 16T) = 6.16% of the problem resolved by taxes over the next 10 years and that doesn’t include the unfunded entitlement liabilities accruing that are set to make Medicare go bankrupt in 2024.

Don’t you think it’s about time Obama put forth a plan to address the other 93.84% of the problem?

Dec 21, 2012 1:34pm EST  --  Report as abuse
USAPragmatist wrote:

@jaham, Apparantly you are like many others on the right, you either are ignorant or willfully ignorant of the facts. Obama’s plan does addressing spending, he is offering cuts in ‘entitlement’ programs. When you think everyone else is the problem, more then likely YOU are the problem. And maybe if you would get out of your ‘Rovian Bubble’ you will not look as ignorant as Mr. Rove looked on election night.

Dec 21, 2012 1:41pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Fbear0143 wrote:

The entire country should be sufficiently frustrated with the repugs in congress that they ought to kick the bastards out for good.

Dec 21, 2012 2:26pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Fbear0143 wrote:

The entire country should be sufficiently frustrated with the repugs in congress that they ought to kick the bastards out for good.

Dec 21, 2012 2:26pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Forkworth wrote:

At the rate the Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot, they may have to change their symbol from “Elephant” to “Centipede”

Dec 21, 2012 2:32pm EST  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

A bunch of conservative nuts and their followers have been holding the entire country hostage for the last 12 years… In the mean time, the Chinese are buying away oil businesses in Iraq, Canada, etc.
Really, as Honest Abe once said, “America will never be destroyed from the outside…”

Dec 21, 2012 2:39pm EST  --  Report as abuse
GLK wrote:

There is a trigger that Congress included in the Budget Control Act in 2011. The idea is that if Congress can’t agree on a better way to balance the budget by year end, automatic and painful spending cuts and tax increases will go into effect. This actually solves Congress’ biggest problem, namely that doing anything that is balanced and appropriate for the country renders a politician unelectable. Republicans can’t vote for tax increases and get reelected while Democrats can’t cut social services and keep their jobs. But don’t cry for Congress because this isn’t the sort of problem that can thwart a building full of lawyers. They put their snouts together and cleverly invented a concept – called a trigger – to take the blame for them. This way, both sides can screw their supporters while still blaming the other side. No one has to take responsibility for anything.

Dec 21, 2012 3:06pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

@Pragmatist…I appreciate your point of view but unfortunately I am not the problem with your position, the math is.

You are correct, I left out those paltry spending cuts of $400B over ten years.

Without even considering the trillions in unfunded entitlement liabilities accruing, let’s examine the arithmetic that Clinton lauds:

$6.7T deficit projected over the next ten years

$16T in current national debt

$1.4T of tax revenues Obama wants to raise

and a measly $400B in spending cuts Obama proposed

(1.4T + .4T) / (6.7T + 16T) = 7.92% of the problem resolved by Obama’s farcical proposal.

Don’t you think it’s about time Obama put forth a plan to address the remaining 92.08% of the problem?

Dec 21, 2012 3:06pm EST  --  Report as abuse
americanguy wrote:

I grew up learning phonics, and I am telling you, his name is not pronounced “Baynor” in English. I spent time in Germany and Boehringer Ingleheim Pharmaceutical was pronounced “Bo-ringer “.
In the US the name Boeh, is pronounced “Bo”. In Iowa, Boeh farms (a meat producer) is pronounced “Bo”.
You can’t expect a lot from someone who is a drunk and is so chicken or stupid that he can’t properly pronounce his own name.
The proper pronunciation of his name fits him perfectly.

Dec 21, 2012 3:13pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

I sincerely cannot understand why liberals are content with a fiscal proposal that doesn’t nearly solve the problem…can someone please enlighten me?

Is it simply because token the political victory of taxing the rich is more important than rectifying our governments fiscal issues?

Dec 21, 2012 3:14pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Yiddly wrote:

TERM LIMITS = the ONLY thing that will get our politicians to actually govern. And maybe add a little less gerrimandering of districts. People – we are getting the government that we allowed to happen….

Dec 21, 2012 3:29pm EST  --  Report as abuse
USAPragmatist wrote:

@Jaham, maybe because us ‘liberals’ are smart enough to realize that you can not solve a GOP-created problem that has been 30+ years in the making, in one year. You probably do not realize, due to your, most likely, willful ignorance that our deficit/debt problems(excluding WW2) did not really start until Reagan promoted his ‘supply-side’ economic theory. IMO, I think the whole ‘supply-side’ economic theory was just a cover for the GOP’s ‘Starve the Beast’ strategy to get rid of what they and their corporate overlords have always hated, ‘entitlement’ programs and Government regulations that promote the common-good, because they perceive that it hurts their ability to make more money.

If you were truly interested in solving our financial problems you would realize that what is needed is a balanced solution that would have roughly a 1:1 ratio of revenue increases:spending cuts. And what is funny is the GOP, and I think you, have never even mentioned the biggest spending issue we have now, runaway defense spending.

Dec 21, 2012 3:41pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Bob9999 wrote:

It is entirely possible that the so-called “fiscal cliff” is the only fiscal policy acceptable to both of the political parties.

Remember that the tax increase component came about when the Bush tax cuts were extended through 2012 instead of being made permanent.

Also remember that the automatic budget cuts were the result of House members’ threats to force the U.S. to default on its debts (by not raising the debt ceiling) if budget cuts were not made. The automatic budget cuts were to be replaced by more agreeable negotiated budget cuts, if such cuts could be negotiated. But such cuts could not be negotiated (which is not surprising, given the vast chasm between the two parties).

Thus, the present state of affairs was established in 2011 by today’s outgoing Congress as a way of punting these difficult issues to the incoming Congress.

Even though there have been some changes to the makeup of Congress, it’s pretty much the same group of people, and there is no reason to expect results that are different from what let to this so-called “fiscal cliff.”

Indeed, the “fiscal cliff” is in some ways nothing more than the kind of belt-tightening policy that many in both parties have been demanding all along.

Dec 21, 2012 3:56pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Butch_from_PA wrote:

The majority of Americans are disappointed with both party options.

Why can’t bring in an arbitrator to put together a package that sits in the middle.

Very simple – cut or freeze government spending for 3 years (let the mangers figure out how to do this) and raise taxes marginally for 3 years.

Simple – easy – all this crap about standing firm servs no one and embarrasses our country.

Dec 21, 2012 3:57pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

@pragmatist said: “‘liberals’ are smart enough to realize that you can not solve a GOP-created problem that has been 30+ years in the making, in one year.”

I didn’t ever say they should be solved in one year; the Path to Prosperity did it in 8 while Obama’s proposal NEVER projects a balanced budget.

There’s no way you are dumb enough to believe that even if all of our fiscal problems were created by the GOP (they weren’t), that it should absolve Obama and the Democratic leadership of their duty to put forth a feasible solution; the math dictates that their solution is not feasible.

“If you were truly interested in solving our financial problems you would realize that what is needed is a balanced solution that would have roughly a 1:1 ratio of revenue increases:spending cuts”

Obama’s own Simpson-Bowles recommended a minimum 2:1 ratio; mind providing substantiation for your 1:1 claim? Mind explaining why you’re content with Obama’s proposal of a .285:1 ratio (.4/1.4)?

And BTW, yes, I am absolutely in agreeance that we could make pragmatic cuts to defense spending, but as I know it is a GOP “sacred cow” that liberals would love to get their hands on, I would not begin to cut defense spending unless EVERY OTHER GOVERNMENTAL DEPARTMENT was on the chopping block, as well – agreed?

Dec 21, 2012 4:12pm EST  --  Report as abuse
AlkalineState wrote:

jaham complains: “7.92% of the problem resolved by Obama’s farcical proposal. Don’t you think it’s about time Obama put forth a plan to address the remaining 92.08% of the problem?”

We can raise the taxes higher on the top 2% if you like. I only make 208 K per year, so I don’t really care. Capitalism is about rational self-interest. And I am not interested in sheltering millionaires any more.

Dec 21, 2012 4:14pm EST  --  Report as abuse
DaveFe wrote:

Republicans are going to get the blame and if they let the government default next month without raising the debt ceiling the Grand Old Party will be dismantled in 2014.

Dec 21, 2012 5:04pm EST  --  Report as abuse
RickC-TX wrote:

Seriously, this is what Obama ran on? $4 in additional revenue for every $1 in spending cuts? I could have sworn that he campaigned on $2.5 in spending cuts for every $1 of increased revenue. And then, like a typical DEMOCRAT CHICAGO POLITICIAN, he total changes his story and tries to blame it on the Republicans. Not to mention the fact that he threw the ‘unlimited debt ceiling’ on top of everything, KNOWING that even his own party wouldn’t support that. Obama is PURPOSELY driving us over the fiscal cliff for his own political gain. Just look at the facts, it’s obvious!

Dec 21, 2012 6:08pm EST  --  Report as abuse
USAPragmatist wrote:

@jaham, couple of points…

1. Our fiscal issues are MUCH worse today then they where during the Clinton years(not addressing your insinuation that it was all the GOP/’Path to Prosperity’ that balanced our budget and not Clinton too, I will give that it was a team effort, but to say it was all Gingrich and the GOP is just plain false), so they are going to take longer to solve.

2. I would cut defense spending 25% before even considering cutting education, infrastructure or other programs that actually help people. Then we can look at other discretionary programs, with the greater goal of cutting defense at least 50%.

3. Also what needs to be done before cutting things like education is a REAL evaluation of making the tax rates on capital gains more equal to the tax rates on ‘normal’ income.

Dec 21, 2012 6:12pm EST  --  Report as abuse
Abulafiah wrote:


your figures, no matter how many times you post them, are 100% nonsense. They are meaningless

They are meaningless because you leave out the two most important factors: economic growth and inflation, and it is clear that you don’t even understand what ‘projected’ means. Like most right-wingers, you think it means ‘predicted’, but it doesn’t.

Take a bit of free advice. Don’t post on topics you obviously don’t understand.

Dec 21, 2012 9:55pm EST  --  Report as abuse
TheNewWorld wrote:


You are 100% correct. Clinton and the GOP worked together. Sure it wasn’t all a bed of roses, but all parties involved in took some and gave some and worked together. I think a 50% cut in defense spending is reasonable. I would begin by closing a majority of our foreign bases and bringing our troops home. You could cut the spending in half and have a stronger domestic defense. It is time for our NATO allies to start pulling their fair share and stop depending on the US to be the muscle. We need a non interventionalist foreign policy though, and neither Democrats or Republicans seem to support that. Eventually though, there will be no choice in the matter.

Dec 22, 2012 10:20pm EST  --  Report as abuse
macira wrote:

The TEA party folks have ruined what was left. Of the Republican Party. The likes of. Nancy and Harry leave little to support in the Democratic Party. What is left for us?

Dec 22, 2012 10:46pm EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:

@alkaline said: “We can raise the taxes higher on the top 2% if you like. I only make 208 K per year, so I don’t really care. Capitalism is about rational self-interest. And I am not interested in sheltering millionaires any more. ”

The problem is that even if you significantly raise taxes much higher than Obama wants to on the “rich”, it still won’t put a meaningful dent in our fiscal issues, meaningful spending cuts has to be part of the solution.

@abulafish said: “your figures, no matter how many times you post them, are 100% nonsense. They are meaningless

They are meaningless because you leave out the two most important factors: economic growth and inflation”

You can call my figures meaningless, but they come from government bureaus like the CBO. Go look at the numbers of yourself and spend all the time you want debating semantics such as prediction vs. projection; the math doesn’t lie.

Dec 24, 2012 8:46am EST  --  Report as abuse
jaham wrote:


1)I fully agree both sides are responsible for the position we find ourselves in. I do agree that this fix will be effected over the long term, but keep in ind I’m already talking 10 year figures here. If in 10 years we can’t tackle even 10% or so of the problem, I don’t think that constitutes a meaningful or material effort towards fiscal balance.

My purpose is not to point the finger of blame for our problems, rather only to highlight the intransigence of the Democrat position in refusing to cut spending by even the minimum Obama’s own deficit commission recommended. Why even call a deficit commission to figure out a solution if you don’t have the political courage to cut spending?

2) Yes I think defense spending should be cut, and not only should cuts be made but the whole department should be 6sigma streamlined for efficiency; along with every other governmental department. I honestly think we should be spending more on infrastructure right now as Obama’s stimulus, frankly, did little in this regard. I agree education is of the utmost importance but when you spend more money of k-12 education than any other country in the world and rank outside the top 20 in math and science, you can’t possibly tell me the problem is funding….

3) I completely disagree. While you may not realize it, this is only making America less attractive for business investment on a global scale. We need to do the opposite and try to attract investment to America as it is the only means by which we will attain sustainable, long term, organic job and wage growth. I would lower corporate and capital gains rates, actually, and remove ALL deductions and loopholes to foster transparency of the tax code. What’s the point in charging GE a stated rate of 35% when they effectively pay 0%? Lower that corporate down to 10% and let all companies pay that rate. Raising taxes, raising ineffective regulations, imposing taxes on employing foreign workers and all these other liberal ideals make America less attractive for business investment, thus the unemployment rate is almost the exactly the same as the day Obama first took office.

Dec 24, 2012 8:56am EST  --  Report as abuse
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