EU confronts U.S. over reports it spies on European allies

As an American, this really makes me smile. Happy to see our government FINALLY getting caught with its hand in the cookie jar. It has been long overdue. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

As an American, this really makes me smile. Happy to see our government FINALLY getting caught with its hand in the cookie jar. It has been long overdue. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

As an American, this really makes me smile. Happy to see our government FINALLY getting caught with its hand in the cookie jar. It has been long overdue. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

As an American, this really makes me smile. Happy to see our government FINALLY getting caught with its hand in the cookie jar. It has been long overdue. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

As an American, this really makes me smile. Happy to see our government FINALLY getting caught with its hand in the cookie jar. It has been long overdue. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

Let me point out that the USA government says to USA citizens “if you are not doing anything illegal then you have nothing to hide (from the USA)”. The EU might consider this philosophy when having the USA bugs in their offices.

Spybama

@Wonka,
It is a matter of international decorum. The fact that I have nothing to hide does not give my neighbor the right to bug my phone for no reason. That would be a break in civility and illegal. It also applies to international relationships; especially when the Europeans are our allies and support our efforts all around the world. It would be like spying on your brother while he does nothing but help you.
I am an American, but unlike the many who are egotistic and blind I am ashamed that this President has demonstrated the low class he has.

@Europe,
As an America, I do see you as great partners. Like brothers, we may disagree from time to time; yet we remain brothers. Also as an American, I assure you that not everybody here is a gangster Chicago-style. There are some of us who have extensive education and manners. So, I ask that you forgive the American people while you prosecute Obama. We don’t approve of his spying here either.

Wonka,

You just don’t get it.

It’s not about whether anything illegal is happening. It’s about respect, confidence and trust.

Most importantly, it’s about the right to and expectation of privacy.

Would you want a bunch of spies watching you make love in the privacy of your own home? What ? No? Why not? You’re not doing anything illegal, are you?

Jeeze.

Snowdon was probably going for this when he applied for the job. So the “whistleblower” story is just a wash.

But right now the NSA under Obama looks completely out of control. Obama is in South Africa posing in Mandela’s cell while his administration appears to have enabled virtual spying domestically and internationally.

Welcome home Mr. President.

@LoveJoyOne That’s exactly what I want to say but you expressed it more concisely.

Even so, don’t expect Obama to give apology to anybody as it doesn’t conform to his diplomatic style. A courtesy reply without substance is within most expectation. Americans highly value their privacy since 1776. Privacy is part of our core civil rights.

I a bunch of stupid European friends I had who congratulated me in 2008 when the guy I didn’t vote for won. They said that Obama was the best president ever elected in the US….I’m guessing they were basing that on something other than reality, surely not the color of his skin, since the man hadn’t even been sworn in yet.

I hope you are enjoying our President Europe.

NSA is also apparently attempting to record all emails and phone calls of americans and keep them on file for years. This is apparently ok because they don’t actually look at what they have recorded unless court order/reason.

But if a backdoor or state of emergency then it could be used to search all voice and email communications of every american for last 5 years for those that oppose a regime and have them eliminated. Google “night of long knives” on what a democratically elected government can do and how the people go along with it.

Big deal, everybody spies on everybody else, it’s been going on for decades, and anyone who didn’t know this already hasn’t been paying attention.

This is all false outrage because Snowden gave this “story” to the media and nothing more.

Europeans shouldn’t put up with this behaviour from a ‘supposed ally’, the US wouldn’t. Virtually everything the US governent has done in the past decade to improve healthcare, help the economy and prevent terrorist attacks has meant greater power to the goverment and loss of freedom for the citizens. How ironic is it that we now need European governments to pressure the US government so that all citizens will have the expected privacy and freedom from tryanny. I guess we’ve come full circle in the past 250 years!

European officials won’t do a thing. They know where their bread gets buttered, and didn’t manage to hold their current position without understanding how to frontrun an issue and then fall on their sword.

Yes there is popular outcry over the boundless surveillance when this issue needs addressing you’ve been trained in how to handle this.

Makes as much sense as revoking Jon Corzine’s broker license.

Now this is a direct and frontal assault on my privacy, my rights as a german citizen, a human being and a free man. If there was one thing missing to get me back into german politics, now its there. I demand full disclosure of all the meta data concering me my wife and family from the United States of Amercia. My trust and sympathies with this great nation has vaporized.

Wwait, wait, we should focus on the evil whistle blower and threat to the national security (really, Mr. Kerry?), instead of the US being caught with their pants down, right?
At least stand up to it America, admit you have been spying on your own people and allies,instead of whining like a baby..

Partners do not spy on each other

Yes they do, you just did not have an Edward Snowden giving all of your secrets away to all the other countries. Make no mistake the EU countries are doing the same thing..

Well. well Barry, I suppose you are going to have less people like you in Europe than in the USA now…..way to go, bugging our partners. Smooth, real smooth….

@Laster
Two tongue in cheek questions to make sure I understand the message:
(1) European bread is buttered by China, their biggest economic partner, right?
(2) Corzine will not lose his license because he is Obama’s guy, right?

If so, it all makes sense now. Europe will not do anything because that would put pressure on the issue of Chinese spying on America. It’s best to leave things as they are.
And Corzine; he will keep his license and just move to Chicago where he can join one of the local clubs celebrating their freedom to be corrupt. I hear that there are a lot of those in Chicago gangsta-land.

Has everyone forgotten the “flying wing” the yanks flew over the Detroit river for a while? No worries, no shame, just an expensive camera floating over the border spying on Canada and Canadians…because there are so many Canucks that are interested in sneaking into the land of the free [rolls eyes].

Let’s see how the Obamabots in the media spin this one.

Europe…..whatever. They would all be speaking German and clicking their heals if it weren’t for us.

Snoweden is a traitor. She has betrayed his countrymen and must face his people or like a coward and hide like a cockroach.

When the government ignores our rights, including the right to privacy in accordance with the fourth amendment, what do their efforts protect us from?

you can’t be complaining about US tapping on your data when you allow american soldiers roaming on your soil freely for over 70 yrs…. and outsource your national defense to USA…

LIke all you people on this forum believe that no one else is doing this. Are you all that naive? All Snowden did was break the law. Treason. If you think he didn’t why is he running?

I’m sure the knowledge that the Germans are regarded by the US as “third grade” allies will be a welcome reality check.

German policy has drifted far too close to the Pentagon since Mr Schroder left the scene.

Hopefully this revelation will wake them up!

Stop the presses! We have the European pretend-sovereign states by the balls. What outrage! They can go buddy up with Moscow if they so desire.

And, the real person that should be arrested for treason goes to: President Obama!!! (Applause). Mr. Obama, would made you decide to spy on the world and put all American lives at risk? Obama: Well Johnny, we at the white house, just figured we could spin this and put it on Mr. Snowden. Johnny: But, Mr. Obama, Snowden spied on you, and not the entire world, how is he to blaim? Obama: Well Johnny, we did convince half the US that it was his fault. Now if we can convince half the world, we only lose half our friends. It is simple ghetto math, Johnny.

It appears that we have become a two party dictatorship ran by a bureaucracy run amok and driven by corporate greed. We are capable of defeating any enemy but, just as Hitler fatally discovered are we able to defeat the all simultaneously? We are not well liked anywhere anymore and we as a people have allowed a small group of Aryan’s (want to be’s) to persuade us to abandon all reason and accountability and destroy our love for freedom and liberty. All around me I hear “well there is nothing I can do about it so…” or I don’t have anything to hide so I have nothing to worry about”. Well there are about 15000 federal statutes and most of us are probably breaking one of them. Oh, and the macho gun hoarders who believe they can preserve freedom are only kidding themselves, they are critically vulnerable and they do not know it. How sad are their arguments that they are out stratigised and they don’t know it at all. Pathetic.
We have always spied on our friends and enemies but, it seems different now, for some reason. As a citizen I feel dirty, like a good catholic covering up for a perverted priest or a good cop looking the other way while another violates the law.
Who are we anymore? It appears that we have squandered all of the good will that our forefathers won through credible and honorable actions. And we did this for just a few bad apples. The devil will forsake a lake of truth for a pint of poison. Welcome to hell!

It is so refreshing to see the eyes open up for the first time, for those that were blind and now see.

TRUST NO ONE !!

To the 3 idiots that mentioned this is Obama’s baby.

You 3 are too f’ing stupid to use the internet unsupervised.

Do you really think this is partisan politics?

YOUR GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT AND ALL YOU CAN SEE IS THE MYOPIC WORLD VIEW THAT IT IS THE “OTHER GUY’S FAULT.”

You are too brainwashed to even have your opinion matter. You are EXACTLY what both parties want you to be.

I wonder if Snowden has information on the vicious Electromagnetic harassment and torture weapons that America has perfected and has shared with our so-called friends to torture people they don’t like. Some info may be seen at, “Electromagnetic Torture.com”

US: If it weren’t for us, you’d all be speaking German now

EU: Exactly! Damn you Amerikans!

“Big deal, everybody spies on everybody else, it’s been going on for decades, and anyone who didn’t know this already hasn’t been paying attention.

This is all false outrage because Snowden gave this “story” to the media and nothing more.”

@Rick_FromTexas Wars, theft, rape, corruption are also things that going on for millenias and people still get raged when see news about it. Its a sociological effect built-in in us to combat parasitic behavior.
Parasitic behavior (even at governamental level) is any behavior that hurts the society in benefit of the parasite.

False outrage isnt something that exists. But if you mean by ‘false outrage’ as something triggered out by emotion because they were reading some news about it then you’re right.

they demand an answer because of a magazine article? our own government won’t stop lying to us fast enough to catch up to ask a question about benghazi, or irs, or wiretapping, or nsa spying. forget one magazine article, half this country wants obama impeached. this is an out of control government on its way out the door. why did obama take sides in the trayvon martin case, he just started a race war on our own turf as he knew would happen. george zimmerman is not even white but blacks have threatened whites in a matter of days over 1 MILLION times on twitter from death threats to violence. welcome to america, i laugh at your one magazine article.

The best responses are these. Buy nothing made in the US. It is acceptable to take money FROM the Americans; simply, do not send any money TO the Americans. Declare all US patents null and void. Double the costs of US bases in EU lands; double the prices of goods sold to Americans in EU lands. Withdraw from Afghanistan immediately and let the Americans bleed and die alone. Trade with Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and other countries that the US does not like. Do not honor any US rules, regulations, laws, or constitutional provisions that interfere with EU objectives. These actions should gain America’s attention and encourage the US to make improvements.

I hope the Nobel Peace Prize Committee is enjoying being spied on…

And the UN bugged Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Mexico, Guinea, and Pakistan. And Israel has bugged the US, and vice versa. And the Brits bugged the EU in 2009. And yes, EU nations have bugged the US.

This is how business is done. There are clear differences between this, and what Russia and China engage in.

The EU could easily show manufactured outrage about things that actually matter in the world.

We have a bunch of greedy, hypocritical, oppressive lowlifes running the U.S. government! They are reaping what they been sowing! If the E.U. did this to the USA, everybody in Congress and the White House would have a freaking cow, hissy-fit. And I agree with the other comments…Edward Snowden should get a Congressional Medal of Honor, instead of an arrest warrant!

It’s not the “secret service” or even the Secret Service.

In the US, the Secret Service is a part of the treasury department, and among its functions are protecting the president and going after currency counterfeiters.

You’re thinking of the NSA, the National Security Agency.

The east German secret police spied on 10% of their population. The perverted filth in Washington spied on all of them and all of us too.

Please, who is Germany and France trying to kid….they bug just like every other developed country in the world….we know China and Russia are doing it big time. Stop the drama!

People throughout the US were outraged by Edward Snowden’s revelations.
Now it is the turn of the EU to be “shocked and awed”.

Those who were/are not outraged clearly do not understand the clear and present dangers of what can happen when people are tempted to believe that straying “just a little” from the iron clad intentions codified in the United States Constitution, is acceptable “under certain circumstances”.

That type of thinking might be compared to a Father expressing the idea to his unmarried teen-aged daughter that it is OK for her to get “a little pregnant” as long as she doesn’t let it go too far.

As the rate of progress in high-tech Scientific pursuits, covert spying and intelligence gathering in particular, escalates at the rate of an inverse geometric proportion, it becomes more and more difficult, if not impossible, to tell the people involved in such work:

“It is OK what you are doing, as long as you do not get “too pregnant”. But alas- one can never be just “a little pregnant”.

People in the world-wide “game” of intelligence gathering have one goal and one goal only. And that is to gather as much intelligence about as many people and situations as they can, just as efficiently and quickly as they can. The more the better, the faster the better.

“Shocked- simply shocked” that anyone would do these things ?

Didn’t some wise man once say, back in the day:

“If you get kicked by a Mule, consider the source.”

The purported shock within the EU that they have also fallen under the information gathering “umbrella” and far reaching nets of the US intelligence community, should really come as no shock to them or anyone.

Just to put things in perspective, when the US was working on the “Manhattan Project” during WW II, to develop the Atomic Bomb, which was supposed to be the most closely guarded secret in history, a US Colonel at an airbase in Alaska, insisted in breaking open the suitcases of a Russian diplomat and discovered huge detailed maps of the entire facilities, buildings, labs, roads, etc. at Los Alamos.

Read about the thousands of layers of protection that had been painstakingly instituted to prevent even a particle of information from escaping from Los Alamos. But nothing is ever perfect in this world.

Now fast forward to the present and consider that WW II era “information gathering”, as amazingly impressive as it was, and still is, would be like comparing a horse and buggy from 1890 to a modern Ferrari.

Those who are entrusted with the task of gathering information will always strive to go the limit, without feeling any external or internal pressure, Legal or not, Constitutional or not, to do otherwise.

To believe it can be otherwise would be like placing a group of children in the toy department of Macy’s dept. store during Christmas week and expecting them not to touch and/or play with any of those shiny new toys.

The EU, as well as the rest of the world, is acting rather naïve to profess shock, or at least pretending to express shock, at the never ending series of revelations which seem to be bombarding us every single day.

And, unfortunately, many people do not realize the full range of negative effects, limitless spying introduces into not only high stakes political and military espionage but even such ordinary, mundane, everyday events as buying a house or one company trying to outmaneuver another company when one or the other literally knows everything their business opponent is doing and thinking.

The ultimate irony here is that as the last vestiges of “Privacy”, whether on the personal, business, political or military level, vanish from the globe, the world may just be forced to revert back to the methods of the Pony Express, Wild West, days, when correspondence had to be set down on paper, sealed with a wax stamp and carried in a leather saddle bag on the side of a fast horse.

Of course just as airports now have sophisticated body scanners that can see right through your clothes, no doubt there will be invented scanners that can read what is inside envelopes.

Thus the only 100 % safe and secure method of transporting information will perhaps be by employing a personal live courier in whom one has full trust- assuming anyone can still trust anyone in this world, to hand deliver their communications.

So perhaps maybe, just maybe, the Founding Fathers were able to gaze into their mental Crystal Balls and see the future. They could clearly see a good deal of the problems that were out there waiting in the distant future, a few centuries down the road.

And so they put a great deal of effort into crafting the United States Constitution and later the Bill of Rights to protect the “Individual” as much as possible from potential government abuse. I do believe they did their very best.

Assume the worst, expect whatever you say on your phone or send to others via laptops over the Internet etc. is “an open book” and/or “a letter to the world”.

I do not see Edward Snowden as a traitor at all. What did he expose that any sane, intelligent person should have been able to surmise and/or figure out on his or her own, and quite some time ago, for that matter.

Mr. Snowden merely tried to remind the world that such things as “common courtesy” and “respect for privacy” were fast becoming rare commodities on this planet. Mr. Snowden wanted to remind us all that we violate the US Constitution at our peril.

And “The Founding Fathers”, perhaps not a few Mothers also, must surely be staring down from Heaven, asking:

“We specifically designed and carefully crafted the Constitution to prevent all this bad behavior from happening but what do you do when so many people believe that they are “Above the Law” and that the US Constitution does not apply to them ?”

Therein lies a Cosmic Riddle and one Hell of a challenge for “we the living”, to ponder- and try to solve.

Peeps are still calling this a product of Obama – fools! This is a product of U.S.Govt and has been for decades. This is nothing more than the U.S.elite trying to monitor the elite (for the elite elsewhere run their countries just like the elite here run ours) of other nations. Business as usual anyone ‘surprised’ about this are as foolish as those who think this is ALL Obama’s fault. Yes, it is appalling and inexcusable, but so is the vast ignorance being exhibited over this issue.

Poor, poor world. You didn’t really think that because you were allies with the U.S. that it would exempt you from it’s invasive activities did you?

Every schoolboy in the US knows that the terrorists of September 11 came from Germany where they obviously had ample opportunity to prepare their attack. Terrorist cells seem to thrive in Germany, which now has over 2.000 mosques. Keeping an eye on them may be a good idea.

‘He told French radio the United States had crossed a line.’
If it was a red line I wouldn’t be too worried about it….

Those of you that believe friends don’t spy on friends are naive. EVERY embassy in EVERY country has a resident spymaster. It is an accepted practice, and in most cases, the id of the resident spymasters are known. It’s like a cat and mouse game, and so long as you don’t step over some agreed-upon line, no problem. The issue here is did the US cross the line?

@Laster
Two tongue in cheek questions to make sure I understand the message:
(1) European bread is buttered by China, their biggest economic partner, right?
(2) Corzine will not lose his license because he is Obama’s guy, right?

I’m sorry it read as such. I believe the trail might be somewhat longer. It has more to do with capital markets, bank capital ratios, sovereign debt, and exposure in the derivatives market.
Incidentally, wasn’t it a mistaken calculation in a margins call from JPM that set MFG spiraling out of control ??

At any rate revoking Jon Corzine’s broker license does seem a pathetic attempt at punishment, regardless of where he decides to relocate, or what his future plans are, were.

The White House declared that cyber attacks were an act of war. Why did we go to war with Germany? …..Again.

@MikeBarnett, your response is absurd. International trade is a fact, and if you stop buying one country’s products, they stop buying yours. What do you do with excess goods you are no longer selling to a trade partner?

You might as well have said nuke the USA and all the world’s problems will go away. And I find your comment re Afghanistan repulsive, even though I support a US withdrawal because Karzai is an idiot.

Yes, spying was rampant during the cold war. It is also true that people all around the world distrusted trigger-happy Bush. But what no one expected was that Obama, the Nobel Price for peace, would break their hearts.
If I recall well, there was so much hope; people were so happy that the end to American imperialism would now be possible thanks to this charismatic new leader. Clearly the new US president with his environmental and human rights rhetoric would modernize America. His message for peace would surely change the world for good. Little did they know.
While some of us in the US understood that it was all just reality-tv-style entertainment and that there was no essence behind the message, no one outside cared. They just wanted the US to stop bullying everybody else.
What they never anticipated was that a Chicago-style-gangsta would fail the test of time. Look at the images from Obama’s meetings with Putin. Everybody knows that Putin is a gangster. Well, it takes a gangster to know a gangster. They couldn’t talk eye to eye. It was as if they knew each other’s dirty secrets without even speaking. There was just no trust. Perhaps Europeans should have asked Putin what he thought of Obama to balance the Cumbayá feeling they had at the time.
Knowing that a flood of complaints was coming, Obama scheduled a trip full of photo ops and environmental speeches aimed for rebroadcast at home to round his supporters again. This trip also keeps him away from having to answer any tough questions. If you ask me, it is pretty smart.
The problem now isn’t whether the US spies others or not, but that it got caught. As they say, it is all fun and games until someone looses an eye.
Now, what kind of face can Obama use to defend US intellectual property being stolen by the Chinese every day?
Moreover, Snowden did not spy on the Europeans. Obama did. Let’s not lose sight of this fact. We could sort Snowden here. But Obama should face the music in Europe as well. They are not the same issues nor do they cancel each other out.
Let’s now see what happens in this evolving saga. In the short term, we are sure to get lots of nice post cards from the ancient continent.

Obama is currently planting bugs all over Nelson Mandela’s property.

@pbgd
Let’s see if I get your point. The US tapped EU offices at the United Nations in search for German mosques? Wow.
Next time they should check Amazon.com. I hear that they have everything on that website as well.

Simply hilarious!

I was traveling in Germany on the day after the 2008 US election (left Athens just as the election was called, and heard the results in Frankfurt). All the Greeks and Germans I ran across had this stupid silly-azzed grin at President Marxist’s victory. Huge headlines and euphoria was everywhere. From what I’ve read, the same delirium was present in 2012 though I wasn’t there to witness it.

Guess what Europeans, you supported Barry’s Socialism, now you get to live with it. I guess you thought President Marxist would only push his agenda on Americans. Surprise! He’s a “One-Worlder” and YOU’RE in HIS world! So, sit back and enjoy the “leader” that you wanted us to suffer under!

PS. Our Constitution doesn’t guarantee a European ANYTHING (it hardly guarantees anything for Americans anymore). So, quit you whining and enjoy the BRAVE NEW WORLD!

@LoveJoyOne

Does anyone know what kind of voyeurism that the USA is doing in Europe? Any guesses? Maybe they are looking at pretty girls.
—=-

Maybe they believe that some of the people in the EU offices are terrorists. There have been apparently no terrorists attacks coming out of Honk Kong, or the university, a place that was under heavy USA
surveillance. Apparently their tactics are working if and if we are to believe the authorities- they have practically eliminated terrorism to the West from Hong Kong.

Are our EU allies TERRORISTS ?
The NSA repeatedly justifies the surveillance infrastructure as something that is used only to fight terrorists. This revelation proves that to be a big lie.
The spying is used to exercise political power against anyone that the unelected bureaucrats in the NSA don’t like.
This is something that NEVER be allowed in a true democracy.

kinky officials should stop using terrorism in defense of the voyeurism

It would seem that the people of Europe, (which includes France and Great Britain, supposed allies) and more particularly Germany, are less sanguine than the people of the United States when it comes to cyber-snooping by the U.S. government. This article states, in no uncertain terms, that Germany does not take kindly to a supposed friend snooping on them. After all, it was not that long ago that West Germany had to put up with electronic snooping by the East German Stasi police. Smacks of the Cold War that we remember only too well. Personally, I cannot disagree with them. I feel the same way. The NSA is snooping on Canada too. Am I supposed to feel somehow, more secure?

There is a lot more fall-out to come from around the world concerning the snooping that the U.S. does in the name of their security. Aside from being snooped on, I have a major concern that when the U.S. is taken to task for it’s indiscretions, will this discovery act as a catalyst where distrust toward the U.S. is made even more profound than it already is?

Does it provide fodder for the enemies of the U.S. to show everyone that the U.S. cannot be trusted? Sticky wicket, as they say in the U.K. More and more interesting. I am getting the impression that Obama is making Nixon and Cheney look like choir boys by comparison.

“This amulet prevents any attack from elephants.”
“There are no elephants around here anywhere!”
“It’s working already!”

@ MikeBarnett “These actions should gain America’s attention and encourage the US to make improvements.”

- succinct and true;

- in a word, using economic and trade sanctions
- as well as undermining their intellectual property claims in digital media and software

analogous to this course of action:
Antigua set to bypass US copyright law with WTO green-lit media, software sales website
http://rt.com/usa/antigua-copyright-us-wto-778/

To err is human. It takes Washington to really screw it up.

Are there any Nobel awards for spying?

If shame were $1 a pound, everyone in America should be a millionaire.
If the tables were turned (shoe on the other foot), we’d be outraged.
We’d more than likely declare war on every other nation on earth.
Here’s the real moral: “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”.
We should send Bush, Cheney, Kerry and Biden around the world with heads bowed and hats in hand begging all these country’s forgiveness.
Obama should stay home and finish writing his resignation speech.

To err is human. It takes Washington to really screw up a computer network.

A government that has lost the trust of its people is a government with big problems. It shouldn’t be happening. Washington, give us back our trust and our country.

Hey Euroweenies, do you now regret treating this buffoon like a rock star?–ready to take back the Nobel Peace Prize? In all sincerity, I apologize on behalf of the American people for this betrayal. There is no leadership in the USA now, God help us all.

What the hell do I have to do to get something posted?!?!?! Censorship much?!?!?!

All this unconstitutional/illegal, corrupt, nonsense has been on the increase since Kennedy, and hit an all time peak with Cheney and Bush. Obama either never had the true desire, or is devoid of the leadership confidence or moxy to change anything. The same puppet masters pull the strings no matter which of the pre-selected choices end up ‘Democratically elected’. US bankers launder nearly 400 billion in Mexican drug cartel money without so much as an indictment. Obama cries about the drug gun violence in Chicago but lets the financiers continue on with business? For crying out loud if that doesn’t tell you who is in charge, nothing will. As Esmeraldo points out, all this spying is not for National defense or peace, it is for Power and $.

If they spy on their own citizens, who’s surprised that they spy on the whole world? Gotta do something with all that tax money.

The People are becoming the enemy of Government and the terrorists are turning into Government.Time for a revolution by the People for the People?

@JustProduce

You described the “grand letdown” perfectly.

All the joyful optimism, the shining gleams of hope in people’s eyes, both in the US and Europe and so many other parts of the World.

Like the Berlin Wall coming down for a second time in case someone missed it the first time.

And then gradually the disillusionment, the sense of keen belief in the new “Leader” drying up, turning to ashes and then to dust.

“Behold the New Boss…..Same as the Old Boss”

That horrible feeling in the gut when you realize that after actually believing you had finally found that perfect being, for whom you had so long sought, the sickening awakening, followed by the sickening Soul crushing, mind crushing, heart breaking despair that it was all an illusion, an ugly joke and a despicable con job.

And you feel used and abused and very dirty.

The fact that there was no viable alternative in either 2008, or 2012, does not make the whole sordid and repulsive story any easier to swallow.

And lastly, I recall an acquaintance saying to me on Election night of 2008:
“Whatever it is people are expecting from the new President, they are in for a real surprise. By the end of his first week in the Oval Office, “Mr. Hope and Change” will have received all his “marching orders”, loud and clear and will understand that he either does things the way he is “expected to do” or else”.

If that is even a small part of what happened, God help us all.

Then the “snooping and spying and listening” is the least of our problems.

“Franklin was encircled by spies from the minute he set foot in Paris to solicit support for the Revolutionary War. On all minds the burning question was whether France intended to assist the rebel colonies, and if so, when and how it would do so. The French monarchy had its own efficient news service in thousands of paid informants who reported from their favorite cafés, their mistresses’ boudoirs, their medical rounds, their hotel desks, to police chief Jean-Charles Lenoir. Among Lenoir’s roundups was a weekly catalog of the city’s sexual escapades. This was a city of which it was said that when two Parisians talked, a third inevitably listened. Lenoir was among the first to trail the celebrated American on his arrival, sounding a note of uneasiness about his potent celebrity. The chief had serious competition: Lord Stormont, the British ambassador in Paris, pledged to observe the “veteran of mischief” as closely and as inconspicuously as he could. As that was not easy for an accredited ambassador, British intelligence stepped in.”

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2012113_2012104_2012012,00.html

The security aparatus in this country is extremely worrisome. For those of you naive enough to believe this is Obama’s baby, get s clue. This goes beyond the president, and beyond congress.

@san-man, no if it weren’t for US, they’d all be speaking Russian right now. The stupid nazis were getting steamrolled from the East when general Eisenhower rode in on a white horse from the west. The EU is a collection of faceless bureaucrats that no one elected and hence no one in the EU trusts. Why should the US trust them any more than there own people.

Assange is a little late when saying there are numerous copies and that they are encrypted. I called this one a couple weeks ago. Again, I will state: N.S.A does not stand for National Security Administration..but stands for the National Surveillance Administration. The word security was exchanged for surveillance, simply because it sounds less intrusive. The definitions are interchangeable, and was carefully selected.

The United States, as the worlds only remaining superpower, has every right to carry out this surveillance. What has the EU done to prevent terrorism? Nothing.

It’s interesting that both Germany and France have denounced these efforts by the U.S., and dare to call these operations “fascist” – as Germany was the primary aggressor in WWII, and France conceded to Hitlers Germany. Now they dare to denounce the U.S. government as fascist? Without this diligence by the NSA, Europe would most likely again be under control of the true fascists.

These actions by the NSA have prevented dozens of likely terrorist acts, across the world, and especially in the EU. How dare these ungrateful nations now turn their backs on their best ally.

America is still the freest country in the world, thanks to agencies such as the NSA, FBI, Homeland Security and CIA. Freedom comes with a price.

God bless the U.S.A.!

The Moussad got caught spying on the US. Toshiba got caught leaking invaluable anticavitation submarine screw technology to the Chinese. The US and the Russians have been trading spies for years. My point is this: Spies are everywhere, military, industrial, monetary and so on, from every country that can afford them to every country that has info they want. This is all a Media event and anyone who is “shocked” is posing for their audience. This is the real world, the one the public is seldom allowed access to. Business as usual. For everyone.

@generic: taking your foot off your ‘return’ key would make ME smile.

@React

“The security aparatus in this country is extremely worrisome. For those of you naive enough to believe this is Obama’s baby, get s clue. This goes beyond the president, and beyond congress.”

Yet it is very easy for the President of for Congress to stop it immediately. The President can by executive order, he is Commander in Chief. The Congress can by starving the beast of funds. Neither is willing, almost the whole group is complicit in this.

To those who say that if you aren’t doing anything illegal, why should you mind someone spying on you, I point out that many East Germans, Germans under Hitler, Russians under Stalin, weren’t doing anything illegal either. That is until their governments decided what they were doing was illegal. Me, I don’t think that is any kind of eutopia. We can prevent terrorism, without losing our liberties. It is propaganda that the CIA, CSA, and FBI have used to make you think that security and liberty are two things that are polar opposites.

A big kerfuffle, soothing words, photo-op. The only lasting effect is that European nations will start bugging US offices, break into US networks and intercept US communications. Since most Americans clearly think that this is normal behavior, this should not really be a problem. In fact it may be a good thing: the more people know what is going on, the more likely it is that leaks will happen. Imagine if the world would have known about all the evidence that Iraq didn’t have WMD, before it was used as a pretext for an invasion.