New Snowden leak upstages U.S. move to declassify documents

Comments (76)
ChicagoFats wrote:

So now we hear the security of the nation has to be balanced with transparency as well as privacy. I’m waiting for the next word, which I’m afraid will be “freedom”. Makes it hard for the secret police to do their job efficiently when people are free to pretty much do as they please.

Jul 30, 2013 12:35am EDT  --  Report as abuse
margiel wrote:

Secret courts, secret rulings are unAmerican; they are the tools of despotic governments.

Jul 31, 2013 6:53am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JoeKiplinger wrote:

I can’t wait to hear about the secret executions too.

Jul 31, 2013 7:08am EDT  --  Report as abuse
IraqWarVet wrote:

However, the problem is we don’t trust them not to do more things behind our backs.

My ultimatum is that they must disband the FISA court and not gather information on anybody they do not have a specific court order on. Where the court order is obtained from a pool of jurists who are committed to maintain civil liberties. Not just hardline regime loyalists.

Otherwise I will create or support the development of communication methods that entire undermine any surveillance or wiretapping.

Jul 31, 2013 8:21am EDT  --  Report as abuse
IraqWarVet wrote:

However, the problem is we don’t trust them not to do more things behind our backs.

My ultimatum is that they must disband the FISA court and not gather information on anybody they do not have a specific court order on. Where the court order is obtained from a pool of jurists who are committed to maintain civil liberties. Not just hardline regime loyalists.

Otherwise I will create or support the development of communication methods that entire undermine any surveillance or wiretapping.

Jul 31, 2013 8:21am EDT  --  Report as abuse
kw2012 wrote:

You will only see what they want you to see.

Jul 31, 2013 8:58am EDT  --  Report as abuse
DrNo wrote:

How do we know these aren’t just a bunch of sanitized or fake documents created to appease the public and some members of Congress, while the spy agencies just go on doing as they please, a law unto themselves? You can’t trust these people.

Jul 31, 2013 9:14am EDT  --  Report as abuse
VultureTX wrote:

@ margiel wrote:
“Secret courts, secret rulings are unAmerican; they are the tools of despotic governments.”
really? did you ever study the history of law?
Example:
So given the internet, let’s have a APP that texts you saying Judge Rheinhold has issued a warrant for your arrest for felony kidnapping and states the address of your hiding place. Or that APP says your husband has a warrant issued for surveillance for an SEC investigation.

/yeah no secrecy means people die, people get publicly accused when it’s only an investigation, and other people hide their crimes because the government has to make all filings open on the internet.

@IraqwarVet- they already exist and you can legally use them in the US.

Jul 31, 2013 9:31am EDT  --  Report as abuse
ChiBlackhawk wrote:

The president of the Midwest Region for Verizon would not respond to my email request for information on why our phone records were being provided to the government. We have a four-line account with Verizon that I will transfer to AT&T as soon as I can do so without incurring a $160/line penalty.

Jul 31, 2013 10:09am EDT  --  Report as abuse
busseja wrote:

N SS A

Jul 31, 2013 10:32am EDT  --  Report as abuse
busseja wrote:

N SS A

Jul 31, 2013 10:32am EDT  --  Report as abuse
TomMariner wrote:

Are these guys great at distraction or what? Evidently somebody must have made some comments about the Obama Watergate and it is time to make sure that dangerous talk is swept away by the faithful, fanatical press.

Jul 31, 2013 11:02am EDT  --  Report as abuse
WaldoTJ wrote:

so – exactly HOW MUCH money has been wasted on this vast amount of data that no one ever reviews?

they keep using that word “valuable” – but i don’t think it means what they think it means.

Jul 31, 2013 11:30am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Robertbill wrote:

At this point, that is much like a trial for rape in which the only evidence allowed is the rapist’s version, and the victim is quietly continuing to be raped during the proceedings.

Jul 31, 2013 11:38am EDT  --  Report as abuse
betrayed wrote:

The US government is at war with its own citizens and has been for years. The only people that are to stupid to know this is American voting public who by the way can register to vote even though they are not citizens because they are on the joke honor system and do not have to show evidence of citizenship. By the way no other country in the world has looser voting rights. Lets hear it for the league of women voters and the 19th amendment.

Jul 31, 2013 11:53am EDT  --  Report as abuse
blackvault wrote:

For those interested, here are the actual documents released and declassified. (Not editorialized) http://www.theblackvault.com/m/articles/view/U-S-Government-Phone-Surveillance-Programs

Jul 31, 2013 11:54am EDT  --  Report as abuse
brotherkenny4 wrote:

There is an incongruity here. These documents which are supposed to answer the questions regarding oversight have been shared with congress previously. Yet, many in congress are calling for increased oversight. Either these document don’t answer the question or some congressional members are jsut trying to make political hay. Note, it is both DFL and GOP member calling for the changes. You hired partison professional bloggers ought to realise you expose yourselves when you try to pin this to this particular administration. But I guess, your base is a bunch of morons, so it might work. There was never any chance you would change the minds of people having brain cells.

Jul 31, 2013 11:57am EDT  --  Report as abuse
d_web wrote:

Are they trying to say It could just be a matter of time before the NSA will become the new IRS scandal.

Jul 31, 2013 12:01pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

If not for Edward Snowden we all could have had or did have our phone and internet communications spied upon.I’ll always be grateful at having known that our Government thinks it’s above our laws and that they think the rule of law doesn’t apply to them.Those responsible for not respecting our Constitution need to be brought into a court of law and prosecuted,period!!The USA has lost it’s ways and morals.

Jul 31, 2013 12:02pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
halloween wrote:

And should we be surprised? this has been going on for a long time and most people have their head in the sand and don’t care until they find out it will effect their freedom which it already has. Most humans are idiots, only care for the second, for entertainment and give me give me and then act like this is a surprise. Maybe people have woken up too late. Look at the lost of freedom done in the name of fear and most people fall for it. You do not take away freedom to make one free…

Jul 31, 2013 12:06pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

To enter a comment and to then have it viewed for approval deminishes our freedom of speech rights.Furthermore,it’s an issue of trust and as a news agency Reuters would probably be outraged should their rights to publish news had to first be approved before being publish by an other entity !! This will be my second and last comment to never return to this site,period !!

Jul 31, 2013 12:08pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
diluded0000 wrote:

Let me provide a little engineering perspective on what “signaling information” means. By comparing the timing difference in the signals received by three cell towers from one phone, the NSA just admitted that they are tracking your physical location without a warrant.

THE NSA KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN.

In January of this year, the US Supreme Court (United States v. Jones) said you need a warrant to GPS track someone’s movements. The unanimous ruling specifically applied to GPS trackers, but to quote the article “five justices suggested in concurring statements that a warrant might similarly be needed for prolonged surveillance through smartphones or other devices”.

Jul 31, 2013 12:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JAWJA wrote:

“No one has been fired.” Then what Mr Snowden did was no big deal, so, give him back his passport.

Jul 31, 2013 12:26pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
mb56 wrote:

I don’t care how much “transparency” the NSA *supposedly* provides… before Snowden’s release of information they lied and mislead Congress about their actions. If they did it once they could very well be doing it again, with sanitized and misleading documents. AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW AND INSPECTION OF THEIR ACTIVITIES IS THE ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE WHAT THEY ARE REALLY DOING. They are building a data storage facility in Utah with the data storage capabilities to literally store terabytes of information for EVERY person on the planet – that is FAR more storage than is needed to store “metadata”… why do they need this kind of storage if all they’re storing is “meta-data” (which is still wrong) IMHO?

Jul 31, 2013 12:36pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

It’s amazing how disgruntled the ants on the ant farm become when they realize they are being observed.
They have been happy and content leading their lives. No one is banging down their doors (they still haven’t yet), there are no mass round-ups (there hasn’t been since Stalin and WWII) and life would be “the same as it ever was” (all together now . . . do the arm chop)without this knowledge.
But once the kleine Ameisen find out their walls are glass they feel naked . . . THEY’VE ALWAYS BEEN NAKED!
Governments have had secrets ever since the first shaman and the first chief figured out how to hornswoggle the ‘little people’ and have collected/used these secrets ever since the first woman was overheard gossiping over the first fence.

I question if so many are bothered by this information being out there as they are ashamed or embarrassed.

It’s time for the dance of the Antz (slow monotone minimalistic version of Guantanamera starts to play).

Jul 31, 2013 12:37pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
apk44 wrote:

so now between computers and phones we all will end up in prison

Jul 31, 2013 12:40pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
forteinjeff wrote:

Privacy – what privacy? Call it the price for text messaging and credit cards we swipe for our purchase at the local hotdog stand outside our window on the sidewalk. Banks have known for years more than we know about ourselves. Can’t say I’m thrilled the gene is out of bottle, but I’m not willing to turn back the clock a hundred years just so we’d have a modicum of privacy we once “thought” we had.

Jul 31, 2013 12:44pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

@ cbj
> I question if so many are bothered by this information
This is an unconstitutional spying program. What about the citizen’s oath pledging allegiance to the constitution and the sworn duty of every US citizen to defend the constitution, don’t you understand?

Jul 31, 2013 1:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

@ cbj
> I question if so many are bothered by this information
This is an unconstitutional spying program. What about the citizen’s oath pledging allegiance to the constitution and the sworn duty of every US citizen to defend the constitution, don’t you understand?

Jul 31, 2013 1:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

Think about it the NSA must have millions of recorded calls made by robo dialers using spoofed phone numbers which the Federal Trade Commission says they cannot stop. Apparently if you use a robo dialer with a spoofed phone number they (our paid for bureau crates, and Politian’s)are helpless. Somehow I doubt this but it goes to show you that they don’t use the technology at their disposal to stop CRIME here in the US. Knowing that these thugs we pay have the ability to record every call made from a location, and its destination that they could use this same technology to serve the People that pay them.

Jul 31, 2013 1:19pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
oneof7billion wrote:

diluded0000 – I am a telecom engineer, and I don’t think this signaling information is present in a Call Detail Record, just which cell tower is handling the call. Without the signaling info, position cannot be triangulated.

Jul 31, 2013 1:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Sonorama wrote:

“Call it the price for text messaging and credit cards”? As if our personal information MUST be collected like this in order for phones and credit cards to work?

Or are you so comfortable that you don’t care about your rights?

Jul 31, 2013 1:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
dd606 wrote:

diluded0000 wrote: “Let me provide a little engineering perspective on what “signaling information” means. By comparing the timing difference in the signals received by three cell towers from one phone, the NSA just admitted that they are tracking your physical location without a warrant.THE NSA KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN.”

Dude, up your meds… Nobody is tracking you. Seriously, do you really think you are so special that you deserve this kind of effort? Nobody in the government cares where you are.

For any average person who actually thinks they are being tracked or “monitored” by the government… I’d say that what the NSA is doing, is the last of your worries.

Jul 31, 2013 1:58pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

@ oneof7billion
> Without the signaling info, position cannot be triangulated.
This program and others like it are secret. We have NO IDEA what information congress has voted to collect without a search warrant on every single US citizen in America.

Jul 31, 2013 1:59pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

UScitzentoo,
Are you on the same planet?
A) What citizen’s oath?
If you are lucky enough to be born here there is NO SUCH THING.
Only those who become naturalized are subjected to the absurdity of a Citizens Oath.
B) I served in the Military and took my oath so don’t toss around such concepts without the full understanding of what defending the Constitution entails.
C) This collection of data is NOT unconstitutional.
D) You need to be re-educated . . . so go back to your Gulag.

Jul 31, 2013 2:00pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
redboy wrote:

Read carefully the justification for gathering vast amounts of personal data. It’s OK as long as no one is reading it. The invasion of privacy has nothing to do with who or who is not looking at information, but rather that it is being gathered in the first place.

Jul 31, 2013 2:04pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
atheist0579 wrote:

So they’ve declassified the stuff Mr. Snowden leaked?? Then why is he still being hounded by our so-called democratic government?

Jul 31, 2013 2:12pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
pyanitsa wrote:

VultureTX wrote: “… they already exist and you can legally use them in the US…”

Yes, except that if you do encrypt your communications on the web, you are at risk of being singled out. Encrypted emails and chats are one of the red flags for NSA’s XKeystroke program, particularly if the ip addresses are within certain areas such as US to Pakistan or US to Germany and Germany to Pakistan.

HTTP sessions are un-encrypted. HTTPS sessions such are those used by email servers like gmail are encrypted using SSL certficates. It is likely that the NSA also has received the SSL certificates issued by Equifax which gmail uses and other certificate companies. They would need those keys from the certificate cos if NSA XKeystroke email readers can view email in real time as is claimed.

Apart from privacy, etc , the more serious issue is commercial. The coercion of large US commercial internet companies like Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Verizon, Equifax by the US government for NSA purposes places them at a competitive disadvantage. It’s only a matter of time before companies in other countries start building “NSA Free” networks and search engines.

Jul 31, 2013 2:47pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

@cbj
Congratulations on your service to the country. Regarding the constitutionality of the unwarranted spying on citizens, the court challenge has already begun, and will be decided in court. Regarding the citizen’s oath, there is such a thing and it is a legal requirement, all children in school repeat it, any naturalized citizen MUST swear it. The oath reminds us that the US constitution is the highest law in the land, each congressman and the president all swear to uphold it before they are allowed to take office. So, it appears the one who needs an education is you.

Jul 31, 2013 2:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ChimingIn wrote:

Lies, lies, lies and more lies!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Jul 31, 2013 3:27pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
diluded0000 wrote:

oneof7e9, thanks for the input. But you said yourself, “without the signaling info, the position can not be triangulated”. And the NSA said the collect signaling info. So I am inferring, and it is a big inference, that they have the logs from the antenna. (is that an ATM switch?). Even warrantless collection of which cell tower is way too much data, and borderline illegal.

dd606, don’t get tricked into thinking that people opposed to being searched without a warrant are a bunch of tinfoil hat conspiracy nuts. If you don’t care about the US Constitution, go ahead and use your freedom of speech to say so on a site that is protected as a free press. But don’t make out like people who don’t agree with you need meds. I’m not paranoid, I’m ticked off that so many people are complacent with this, ticked off that I have to pay for it, and I’m ticked off that the NSA is likely breaking the law.

Jul 31, 2013 3:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
CSParty wrote:

oneof7billion wrote: “”"”"”I am a telecom engineer, and I don’t think this signaling information is present in a Call Detail Record, just which cell tower is handling the call. Without the signaling info, position cannot be triangulated.”"”"”" Don’t tell us what you THINK. It either can or acannot. What kind of engineer are you? Telecom leaves it wide open.

Jul 31, 2013 3:56pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

UScitizentoo,
The pledge of allegiance?
Don’t be so silly.
A) It is NOT an oath.
B) It is NOT a Federal requirement.
C) It has NO meaning when mouthed verbatim by a five year old regardless of how ‘cute’ it is.
D) It is NOT legally binding by ANYONE especially someone who is too young to legally enter into a contract.

Michigan, Maine, Vermont, Wyoming, Nebraska, Hawaii, Iowa and Oklahoma have NO law requiring schools to submit to the ‘pledge’.
South Dakota, Ohio, Kentucky, North Carolina, Alabama and Louisiana give the schools the option and the rest have a ‘pledge’ requirement.

This means that it falls under STATES RIGHTS and is NOT covered by the FEDERAL US Constitution.

To recap, there is NO Citizen’s Oath.
There is an Oath of Allegiance that is required by those wishing to become NATURALIZED Citizens.
The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT an oath but rather an expression of loyalty. (*side note this ‘pledge’ as originally written does NOT mention God . . . 1892 “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” It was written by a SOCIALIST and used by a promoted by a marketer for a magazine in order to sell flags to children under the guise of NATIONALISM. It wasn’t until the Red scare of the 50′s that God even entered the ‘pledge’).

BTW, the Young Pioneers had an Oath as did the Hitlerjugend and every other system that wishes to indoctrinate the young. Kids jibberjabbering an oath is distasteful and smacks of Orwellian dystopia.

So, PLEASE do some research, you just look silly with out it.

Jul 31, 2013 4:03pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
AlkalineState wrote:

In other news, FBI now suspected of keeping files on citizens.

Snowden, no offense. You’re probably a nice kid. But we’ve known this crap since the 1930′s. Haven’t you ever listened to a Woody Gutherie Song? Read Howard Zinn? Anything?

Jul 31, 2013 4:26pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
WonkotheSane wrote:

Once again, Snowden proves this is about “me, me, me, me.” The minute the spotlight on this case turns elsewhere, he leaks some more to bring it back. Here’s a hint Snowden: you are nowhere near as wise or important as you think you are.

Jul 31, 2013 4:26pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
12zza wrote:

I read the story by The Guardian, then read the PPT slides that were supposedly their source. It is truly disgusting how misleading their story is and how out-of-context they took those slides. The slides leaked by Snowden overwhelmingly depict an XKeyscore program that is all about capturing foreign terrorists and monitoring their data, and has nothing to do at all with spying on U.S. Citizens. If you want to disagree with the power of the NSA and believe they need more oversight, etc., then fine. But after reading that last Guardian story, I think it’s clear that they are about as untrustworthy as it gets. If you don’t trust the Government, you surely can’t trust the Guardian on this one. Shame on Alina and Patricia for blindly citing the Guardian without taking a look at their source first, and seeing how disgusting misleading their story was and did not present what was in that PowerPoint briefing at all!

Jul 31, 2013 4:33pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
SaggyNutzinHD wrote:

The US Military (NSA) has required all Internet connected electronic device makers (Samsung, HTC, Apple, Google, Microsoft, GM, Chrysler, Ford, etc) to embed backdoor access in all software & hardware in those products to allow them (NSA) to monitor us instantly and easily (PC’s, smartphones, OnStar System, tablets, xBox, Skype, Office 365, Skype, DropBox, laptops, PC’s, cars, trucks, etc). Using this back door access the NSA now has the capability to store everything and anything about each of us (device audio, video, keyword searches, email content, web sites visited, contacts, GPS locations, etc) . They have your voice-print, and face image (for facial recognition). They (the NSA) have admitted they can turn on any of your devices at any time and use the microphones and/or cameras and convert all your conversations to text and store it forever.

Only ignorant people think this is about Manning, Snowden, Assange, Obama, Bush, or that it’s democrat vs. republican. This is not politics as usual.

This is about US Military control of the world.

The ignorant have yet to open their eyes and look at the big picture of what is really happening. I know that reality can be very painful and ignorant people sometimes choose to hide from the reality of this terrible and treasonous criminal situation that is being committed by our government & military leaders. They choose not to educate themselves enough to get all the details of what has happened. The ignorant feel somewhat safer bashing those that have educated themselves about this horrific crime.

America is becoming scary … a Nazi kind of scary.

Jul 31, 2013 4:46pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
SaggyNutzinHD wrote:

America is not being run by the Congress or the President. It is being run by military spy agencies, private interest groups, Wall Street, and the US Military Industrial Complex. The Congress and the President are puppets. Our “leaders” operate a lawless state and obey no national or international law. They do not obey the Geneva Convention since they admittedly torture and murder hundreds if not thousands of innocent people. They don’t obey the Constitution since they are spying on all its citizens unilaterally without probable cause and against the Patriot Act. They don’t obey anything. They do what they want without fear because it is likely they have all become psychopathic.

Just last week former President Jimmy Carter said: “The U.S. has no functioning democracy at this moment.”

Jul 31, 2013 4:58pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Benny27 wrote:

@cbj,
You are being obtuse here:
“BTW, the Young Pioneers had an Oath as did the Hitlerjugend and every other system that wishes to indoctrinate the young. Kids jibberjabbering an oath is distasteful and smacks of Orwellian dystopia.

So, PLEASE do some research, you just look silly with out it.”

The Oath of the Hitlerjugend was TO HITLER. if you can’t see the difference between that and an oath to uphold the Constitution of the USA, then you have problems. Pledging to uphold the Constitution, as all elected officials and Federal Employees do, is NOT dystopian, but rather Utopian. In trying to make a better world/country, it makes sense to have even the young affirm our shared principles. When should they learn them? Once they are adults?

Jul 31, 2013 5:06pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

SaggyNutzinHD,
Come on, get serious. The US military doesn’t have a reason. I’d believe Madison Avenue would do such just in order to sell crap more efficiently before the idea of the US military.
Just like a prosecution requires means, motive, and opportunity to have any case so does you wack job theory.
What would be the motive for the US military to do such? Notice I state US Military, the NSA is NOT the Military, nor is the CIA or FBI or any of the other covert organizations.
Second, Samsung (or any of the other manufactures) are not going to succumb to the wishes of a foreign military. They (Samsung and others) exist to make a profit. There is NO profit in becoming a member of the ‘collective’.
It’s just not worth it going over the rest as you won’t listen anyway.
Go see a doctor, that buzzing in your head isn’t the government spy ray it could be Naegleria fowleri or your just having a wee bit of schizophrenia.

Jul 31, 2013 5:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ptiffany wrote:

I am still amazed at all the incredibly naïve discussion regarding the information technology involving these “leaks”. It is rife with ignorance. For example, the revelation of a stunning, vast, complex technology of looking up records in a database can actually be extremely easily performed by a $100 database like Microsoft Access. An amateur programmer to do it.

The real agenda beyond all this techno-babble is obviously different. Like: How did any of the Members of Congress not know that the NSA is doing EXACTLY as prescribed in the Patriot Act. This has been widespread public knowledge since its inception and even an idiot Member of Congress (if there were any) should have known the truth, especially since so many people before Snowden pointed out the same issues multiple times. When these Members of Congress plead ignorance, it only makes me madder.

Anyone else out there feel the same way? Has anyone else followed even some of the commentary over the “Patriot Act” (better name the Restricted Freedoms Act”) over the years? Why is anyone surprised?

Jul 31, 2013 5:26pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
AlkalineState wrote:

ptiffany, that’s a good question. The Patriot Act is not new. What is new is the indignation that it is actually being used. Tea Party Patriots are shocked. Shocked! That the government would look at phone bills in tracking calls.

Jul 31, 2013 5:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
dd606 wrote:

@diluded0000 – Yeah OK, but you didn’t say that, did you… You said…

“the NSA just admitted that they are tracking your physical location without a warrant. THE NSA KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN.”

And sorry, but yes… If you truly believe that is happening to you or any average citizen, then you can definitely include yourself in the crowd you mentioned.

People can whine about the Constitution all they want. But the bottom line is that, it’s a piece of paper that was written by a bunch of guys that are long dead. If George Washington had encountered an Edward Snowden in his day, he would have had him shot where he stood. I seriously don’t understand how anybody could possibly think otherwise.

@ptiffany – People who actually understand how this stuff works, have of course known for many years, if not decades… what is involved. Most of the public unfortunately, has to be spoon fed something for them to notice it, so of course… it takes some nut like Snowden and the media deciding to make a circus out of it, before it actually sinks into the general public. I remember high level IT friends telling me about encountering the tap rooms in major hubs, over 20 years ago. This is not earth shattering stuff. Members of Congress of course do know and have known. It’s just the goof ball members that are low level, that are whining about not being informed. They weren’t informed for a reason… Because they aren’t responsible enough to be informed. Just because you’re part of Congress, that doesn’t mean you get to know every single thing the government does.

The issue here is that, it would appear that a large sector of the public, doesn’t seem to be able to distinguish between the word “could” and “does”. All this fuss the media keeps stirring up and the basics of what Snowden claims, revolves around the word: ‘could’. The NSA “could” collect data on a US citizen… COULD. That word does not mean that they are… It means they COULD. Just like, somebody COULD walk up to you on the street and smash a pie in your face. That doesn’t mean that they are. The public can’t seem to grasp this concept.

Jul 31, 2013 5:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

Again, as I’ve stated, the only people this bugs are those who are looking for yet another reason to hate the government. Of course these non thinkers do so under ‘party lines’. That is to say that it’s always ‘the other guys party that causes the problem’ and if only the public would vote correctly we’d stop the madness.
Well, news flash . . . ALL governments are coercive by nature.
Read your Lysander Spooner.
“A government that can at pleasure accuse, shoot, and hang men, as traitors, for the one general offence of refusing to surrender themselves and their property unreservedly to its arbitrary will, can practice any and all special and particular oppressions it pleases. The result — and a natural one — has been that we have had governments, State and national, devoted to nearly every grade and species of crime that governments have ever practised upon their victims; and these crimes have culminated in a war that has cost a million of lives; a war carried on, upon one side, for chattel slavery, and on the other for political slavery; upon neither for liberty, justice, or truth. And these crimes have been committed, and this war waged, by men, and the descendants of men, who, less than a hundred years ago, said that all men were equal, and could owe neither service to individuals, nor allegiance to governments, except with their own consent.” 1808-1887 True then and still true now.

Jul 31, 2013 5:59pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ptiffany wrote:

@SaggyNutzinHD:
On the surface, your comments seem like that of a rabid conspiracy theorist. Then, anyone who has been following the news would find that most, if not all, of what you write is true and reported by bona fide news sources.

I believe that you are still limited in the true nature of the powers-that-be. The Plutocracy, the Members of the One Percenters Club, the filthy rich have taken control of our governments, federal and state, a long time ago. It was interesting how one of the latest candidates for President all but announced,
THE PLUTOCRACY RULES !

Jul 31, 2013 6:08pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
justinoinroma wrote:

Spybama

Jul 31, 2013 6:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ptiffany wrote:

#dd606:
I appreciate and respect your comments, but you’re dead wrong about “could” and “does”. Various agencies of the federal government going back to the CIA in the 1960s have performed widespread eavesdropping. This is well documented including several books with the details. For some reason people easily accept that the NSA can capture all InterNet traffic including video as described by Snowden as the “easiest” solution to capture, yet would find it technologically difficult to do the same with audio communications. Audio compression technology has been around for decades including the standard 8 Kilobits per second commonly used for voice transmission.

Years of metadata on all national telephone calls can easily be stored on a modestly expensive, commonly available PC along with all the software to access and massage it or easily switch to monitoring. This technology is OLD. So, why is the NSA asking for tens of billions of dollars to expand its storage facilities @ Fort Meade?

Jul 31, 2013 6:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Margaretville wrote:

Is it government for the people or against the people?

Jul 31, 2013 6:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Nomostew wrote:

Very weird what the mods allow to get posted here and what they don’t.

Jul 31, 2013 6:38pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
kentex1146 wrote:

The difference between the US Gestapo and all of it’s tentacles and the German Gestapo of the 30′s?

Technology. And…the US government is far more afraid of its own citizens than the Germans were of their citizens.

Jul 31, 2013 6:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Whatsgoingon wrote:

@cbj: “To recap, there is NO Citizen’s Oath.” This is shocking. Who’s accountable for “losing America”? Did our founding fathers know that the constitution was written for immigrants only?

Jul 31, 2013 6:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Popsiq wrote:

Message for the XKeyscore minders: F*ck you!

Jul 31, 2013 7:24pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Popsiq wrote:

Message for the XKeyscore minders: F*ck you!

Jul 31, 2013 7:24pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

@cbj
The Oath of Office:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Jul 31, 2013 7:34pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UScitizentoo wrote:

Article 2, Section 1 of the Constitution requires that before presidents can assume their duties they must take the oath of office. The completion of this thirty-five-word oath ends one president’s term and begins the next.

Jul 31, 2013 7:35pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
dd606 wrote:

ptiffany wrote: “I appreciate and respect your comments, but you’re dead wrong about “could” and “does”. Various agencies of the federal government going back to the CIA in the 1960s have performed widespread eavesdropping.”

OK, but that was then. We are talking about now. And I guarantee you that when people read sensationalized things like… “ability for widespread US spying”…. They are going to ignore the word ‘ability’, and in their minds, they have just been told that the government is absolutely 100% monitoring them 24/7. Which is ridiculous… They are not. People using the past as some sort of proof of something in the present, is the age old battle cry of the conspiracy theorist. The ‘false flag attack’ people, just love bringing up the Northwoods story every single chance they get. In their mind, because some nut out of thousands of people in the Pentagon, actually did what they told him to do, and dreamed up a crazy scheme to invade Cuba, which instantly got shot down and was never used for obvious reasons… In the mind of conspiracy theorists and paranoid gov haters, that is somehow proof that there are current day ‘false flag’ scenarios routinely taking place… It does not prove that. It doesn’t prove anything in present day.

Jul 31, 2013 7:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
TheNewWorld wrote:

@ChiBlackhawk

“The president of the Midwest Region for Verizon would not respond to my email request for information on why our phone records were being provided to the government. We have a four-line account with Verizon that I will transfer to AT&T as soon as I can do so without incurring a $160/line penalty.”

Every carrier does the exact same thing. Every single one of them. If you don’t want to be spied on, cancel all of your cell phones immediately, and stop using the internet. If you have an Android or Apple device, you are give much, much more information via Google and Apple then you are by your call records.

Jul 31, 2013 8:21pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
breezinthru wrote:

I wish that my Senator Franken, a member of the Senate Banking Committee, was as zealous about protecting citizens from Wall Street risk-taking as he is about the NSA.

Jul 31, 2013 9:50pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
bzza wrote:

@joeKiplinger

Nothing secret about them. It’s common knowledge in the industry. Every couple of days they have to remove Twitter accounts for people who have been taken out.

Jul 31, 2013 12:03am EDT  --  Report as abuse
paintcan wrote:

“Although the programs collect a large amount of information, the vast majority of that information is never reviewed by anyone in the government, because the information is not responsive to the limited queries that are authorized for intelligence purposes,” the 2009 report said.”

Than why collect it at all? Why not collect exactly what they need per a court order? These guys are information gluttons. And all that collection costs someone something even if it is useless. Those most in love with the program seem to work for it. DUH!

Think of what this power will morph into in 50 years time when the country could be a banana republic in love with a Tzar-like “president for life” and Congress is owned by the “Great families” or corporations of America. If they can get it – sooner or later they will use it – all of it – for something. They can always invent a constitutional rational that only a coordinated effort can ever contest. But of course they will have all the information at hand to thwart any contest before it ever starts and they could do that by targeted intimidation with that information easily at hand. But they have so much information now it may be redundant? Every time I think like this it makes me glad I’m too old to likely ever see the monstrosity of future world.

There is an old saying – “the poor man wants to be rich and the rich man wants to be king”. There should be one more tier – “The king wants to be emperor of the world in perpetuity” even if his appearance rots the throne and the state.

Aug 01, 2013 9:41am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Des3Maisons wrote:

Between WikiLeaks, Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden it is becoming clearer and clearer every day why no investigations were ever allowed of the Bush/Cheney administration, especially in relation to the crimes associated with the war in Iraq. Remember Nancy Pelosi stating, “Impeachment is off the table.” Remember also that Obama did not allow the Justice Department to investigate the crimes of the Bush/Cheney administration after he was elected. Who knows what would have crawled out from under that rock. It’s becoming clearer and clearer every day that the United States intelligence organizations are controlling the President and Congress rather than the other way around. We have one stunningly out of control situation here and this is most likely just the tip of the iceberg.

Aug 01, 2013 11:26am EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

UScitizentoo,
Look, go back and read your comments. Here I’ll even help . . .
“This is an unconstitutional spying program. What about the citizen’s oath pledging allegiance to the constitution and the sworn duty of every US citizen to defend the constitution, don’t you understand?”

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CITIZEN’S OATH.

Now you want to insert the ‘Oath of Office’ that various politicians mouth with as much sincerity as a whore’s kiss?
Your feeble attempt to claim the Federal universality of the Pledge of Allegiance has already been dealt with.
We have covered the fact that the Oath of Allegiance that naturalized citizens give is not a requirement for ALL US citizens.
We have obliquely mentioned the Oath of Enlistment (which in my opinion trumps all others because it is backed with the express willingness to lay ones life on the line)

Thanks for playing, please try again.

Aug 01, 2013 11:44am EDT  --  Report as abuse
xcanada2 wrote:

@paintcan: Amen!

Aug 01, 2013 12:12pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
cbj wrote:

paintcan,
“Think of what this power will morph into . . .”

That’s what the 2nd Amendment is for.

Those of you who want to claim government malfeasance for not stopping 911 (well, those of you sane enough to laugh at the ’911 truthers’) and yet demand that the tools to prevent such from happening again be stripped from use have a logical disconnect.
You can be free or you can be safe. Which is it?

As to ‘evil corporations’?
Well, QUIT GIVING THEM MONEY.
They exist for profit (I see nothing wrong with that, even the person flipping burgers wants to make more money at work than it costs to get to work).
This being the case if you disgruntled luddites stop buying iPhones, Levi’s, McDonalds, Ford’s etc. then they would have to listen.
THE ULTIMATE POWER RESTS WITH THE CONSUMER.
But no, you don’t like that answer because then you have no one to blame but YOURSELF.
Walmart exists because YOU SHOP THERE. Does any one hold a gun to your head demanding that you pay them money for stuff you don’t want?
Nope, because the GOVERNMENT has the lock on that business model.

Aug 01, 2013 1:17pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
jrintala wrote:

Funny how all of a sudden all the poobahs are talking about “transparency” and the need for a discussion or a “conversation” about the whole surveillance state business while frothing at the mouth and demanding the head of the person who made it happen and almost declaring war on Russia which is protecting him. I don’t think that there is a word of this.

Aug 01, 2013 2:30pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
z0rr0 wrote:

Rumor has it that in Thursday meeting with Congressmen, Mr. Obama will propose a grand bargain, using the NSA phone logs to improve the Do-Not-Call list.

And give full credit to NC_TAXPAYER_13 for the idea!

Aug 01, 2013 3:29pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
 
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