Japan, U.S. differ on China in talks on 'grey zone' military threats

Comments (22)
waggg wrote:

Count on one thing. The US will say and do whatever best pits Asian nations against each other.

Mar 09, 2014 9:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Zymbat wrote:

@waggg, you are pretty naive, are you saying that the US is the reason Japan and China are always at each others throats? The USA as it exists today has only been around for 400 years. However, Japan and China have been fighting wars now for thousands of years. Don’t blame the USA, they are only trying to find a middle ground and a peaceful solution.

Mar 09, 2014 10:19pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

The countries in the Asia pacific region need to form a NATO
style mutual defense pact in order to counter China`s desire
to keep its Asian neighbors weak and disunited.

The Japanese public would be more accepting of changes to the
constitution if Japan were to be a member of an Asia pacific
mutual defense pact together with other Asian countries and this
would force Japan to act in concert with other countries and
would act as a check on its actions and also the actions of other
defense pact member countries as well. Abe currently does not
have this kind of framework for the constitutional changes he is
hoping to make.

Mar 09, 2014 10:33pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Lumberjet wrote:

Advice to Japan: US now is a castrated horse. I is taking kicks from everyone. Maybe it is time Japan builds its own army.

Mar 09, 2014 10:52pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
engineer99 wrote:

“Japanese government officials offer such hypothetical examples as a landing of Chinese special forces disguised as fishermen on the disputed islands.” said the article above.
Chinese government is NOT stupid enough to land Chinese on the islands, but the Japanese government might. The islands are small and very hard to defend. Also, there are nothing worth taking on the islands.
The Japanese government of Abe needs excuses to revise the collective defense policy.
The N Koreans abused the treaty of alliance with China by attacking S Korea and then begging China to defend them when US intervened.
Just hope the US government is smart enough and does not make the same mistake with Japan if the Japanese attacked first.

Mar 09, 2014 11:19pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
freeokinawa wrote:

Since US only give Japan adminstrative rights over Diaoyu/Senkaku and not actual sovereignty, there should never be any discussion of unilateral Japanese military action resulting from Chinese incursion, including military action.

Japan have zero right to initiate military action and have to ask for US permission how to react to any ‘grey zone’ incident. It has to be US call, like an owner assigning a duty to somebody to administer a property. The administrator, Japan in this case have to obey the owner, US or does not deserve any support from US government and her citizens.

China is not that foolish to make a surprise attack anyway and force Washington’s hand to be involved. All this ‘grey zone’scenario is Japanese imagination to try to force US to spell out in black and white how she will react.

US is wise not to fall into Japanese entrapment tricks either on paper or coaxing US to put more military assets closer to China causing even more tension.

Mar 09, 2014 11:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
shabang wrote:

Japan wants to be the tail that wags the dog, just like Israel is in the middle east. And if US refuses to be ‘wagged’, Abe then has gets a reason to ramp up the Japan ‘defense’ forces. Either way, Abe’s militant wing wins.

Mar 09, 2014 11:31pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

Russia just showed the world in Ukraine that totalitarian countries like Russia and China can not be trusted. They play by rules which only suite their rulers, not people, and they have no regard for human life.

Mar 09, 2014 11:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Pterosaur wrote:

Of course, Japan wants to stir up the US adversary with China so it could use the US to gain the occupied island.

But the US is not stupid to that point of being tricked by Japan.

Mar 09, 2014 12:20am EDT  --  Report as abuse
edgyinchina wrote:

@Zymbat: You’re correct about the Japanese and Chinese fighting each other over thousands and thousands of years, but the biggest in collective memory is the atrocities that the Japanese committed throughout China from 1932-1945. Where we only have a couple of things like Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, Iwo, Corregidor and a couple of others to think about. And Abe’s visits to that war memorial honoring these war criminals isn’t helpful. Also, young Japanese learn in school that WW2 wasn’t their fault – which is also NOT helpful.
What I don’t get however, it your comment about America (as we know it) being 400 years old ? ? ? How do calculate that?

Mar 09, 2014 12:38am EDT  --  Report as abuse
captainjohann wrote:

It is neive of Japan to think USA will take on china which is the emerging super power and holds maximum of US debt.Japan has to rearm and able to fight its own battles. China is behaving just like Mao’s dictum without the rigours of Communism and all its neighbours having territorial disputes have to be on guard like Vietnam,India, North Korea and Japan .

Mar 09, 2014 12:40am EDT  --  Report as abuse
edgyinchina wrote:

@engineer99: What is this: ‘The N Koreans abused the treaty of alliance with China by attacking S Korea and then begging China to defend them when US intervened.’ WHAT? Explain this please ! !

Mar 09, 2014 12:41am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Neurochuck wrote:

@shabang’s tail wag dog comment is apt. It would only encourage Japanese militarists if the USA was “signed up”.
One other problem for Abe is that Taiwanese fishermen approached the Diaoyu/Senkaku as part of its claim, and the South Koreans also have a dispute with Japan. Neither of which the Americans want to attack.
And also Japan has a dispute with Russia about the “northern islands” which are strategically more of a risk, and could be heated up.
So if you want to be Abe’s best friend, you get a lot of enemies.

Mar 10, 2014 1:15am EDT  --  Report as abuse
paintcan wrote:

How can Japan, the most heavily indebted nation on earth – that must only have a currency at all because it forgot to collapse, make a strong stand against anyone? No wonder they were such suckers for Bitcoins. I believe they only recently began to revive a military establishment that for decades after WWII was little more than a national guard, at the insistence of the US. How are they going to pay for a strong military stand? With a credit card? The Japanese are not in the best mood to pay higher taxes either. They still want to lean on the US because for years that allowed them to put all their energies into commercial expansion. That left us to become addicted to military spending and funny defense accounting and all the shadow influences and concerns a “democracy” could stand.

At such a late date – it should be a terrible thought for the Japanese (or anyone esle for that mater) that one can become so wealthy and sophisticated (even it is very funny money) one becomes stupid.

Mar 10, 2014 1:33am EDT  --  Report as abuse
wpgger wrote:

All Japan needs to do is to honor the WWII surrender agreement and return the islands. Everyone can see on the map that the islands are part of Taiwan. China is claiming the islands on behalf on Taiwan. Thats all. China is not a threat to Japan. Japan should also must return Okinawa, which Japan swallowed, to be an independent country (or kingdom). The US has been ignoring international agreements and muddling the waters.
China may be a threat to US hegemony in Asia, which is a totally different matter.

Mar 10, 2014 3:02am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bakhtin wrote:

The problem here is that the pact between the USA and Japan is a defence treaty, so it kicks in only if Japanese territory is actually attacked. How do you define ‘attack’?

What China is doing is deliberately being as annoying as possible, by flying aircraft over the islands, sending submarines and warships into Japanese territorial waters, etc. None of these can be called an attack, so the USA will not respond. On the other hand, if Japan retaliates by sinking a Chinese intruder, China will start crying and saying that Japan has attacked them.

Basically, the Chinese game is the same one that children play: provoke and provoke until they get an aggressive response, then start howling “He hit meeeeee!”

The problem for the USA is to avoid taking sides, but I can’t help thinking that this is an impossible task. Ultimately, China needs the USA more than the USA needs China so maybe Obama should grow a set and let China know that intrusions are aggressive actions that will be retaliated. Alternatively, put the islands under stewardship so that it is not the USA taking sides. Or Japan gives the islands to the USA.

Whatever solution is found, the current situation with China doing its best to provoke conflict cannot be left to drag on forever. China needs to be contained.

Mar 10, 2014 3:50am EDT  --  Report as abuse
hahadavid wrote:

US are burning their feet to support Nazi Japan

Mar 10, 2014 6:56am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bobsmith20 wrote:

Japan needs to find out what problem on grey zone. It is all Abe fault creating this trouble. Negotiate with China rather than against China if JP wants peace. Stop going to extreme right wing direction and repent from WWII war crimes.

Mar 10, 2014 9:41am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bakhtin wrote:

Bobsmith20 wrote:
“Negotiate with China rather than against China if JP wants peace.”

Rephrase: “Do as we say and nobody gets hurt.”

Mar 10, 2014 10:52am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Zymbat wrote:

@edgyinchina, what I mean is that the americas as a mainly Caucasian region (as we know it today) had not started until 1607 when the British began their ruthless massacre of the Natives of the Americas (one of the most cruel acts of genocide the human race has ever known). That’s basically the beginnings of the Americas as we know it today, as majority Caucasian.

Similarly the China of today isn’t exactly the same as the China of a thousand years or more ago, the borders have changed slightly over time, and technically it wasn’t even a country but a region. However the Chinese and the Japanese have been at each others throats since forever.

Mar 10, 2014 12:55pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
paintcan wrote:

@Bakhtin – “Basically, the Chinese game is the same one that children play: provoke and provoke until they get an aggressive response, then start howling “He hit meeeeee!”

China being a nuisance sounds like the Israeli’s for the past 30 years, but especially since the last Gaza/Lebanon invasions. It’s a catchy lesson and has admirers. Waving your military might to put the other side in its place or to keep the swarm buzzing with resentment is nothing new.

Over 20 years ago I said the same thing in a conversation with an minor elected official in this neighborhood regarding Israeli foreign policy. He seemed to agree with me.

It’s going to be the arrogance and in your face attitudes of the up and comers where they know they have outsmarted and sacrificed far more for their success than the Japanese. And there is nothing worse than parvenue to make life miserable for the older powers and their fading glories. You can be sure the new spoiled brats will trump the “wise statesmen” on either side. The new rich can always be counted on to be pigs.

Heck, If you have the cash you can buy all the “wisdom” you like and any old wisdom will do. The Chinese have the more solid investment while the developed countries are worrying how to keep their own economies afloat any way they can. Bitcoins and gold hoarding aren’t going to help, in fact they are the symptom of the disease.

BTW – A recent issue of Foreign Affairs Journal has mentioned the idea that corporations and the developed economies (aka the US) should give better thought to revising econometrics. That means, only measure what they are making money at and not measure what they loose at. The article even suggests that hobbies, and the activities of domestic goddesses (and a few Gods) should be considered part of the measure of GDP. I can’t imagine how that could be measured at all except as normal income if theres a market for vacuum cleaner dust. And hobbies will show as income only if you actually see income from a hobby. Any purchases that go into that hobby are already a measure of GDP. But calling simple maintenance like housework a GDP item is like saying bathing is a productive contribution to the economy or the money spent on water bills is a measure of economic vitality.

Won’t that be convenient, even if no one actually believes a single number in any new user friendly metrics? Imagine each corporation providing it’s own customized balance sheets? That’s what some of the most abusive were very nearly doing before the crash. None of them were eager for consistent rules of play either.

@zymbal – Everyone, all over the globe, has been “at each others’ throats” at one time or another. It’s the exercise and therapy of states because it’s release of aggression that they would turn on themselves otherwise. Only now, civilians get the worst of the exercise and they are he least prepared to deal with it. All war now aims for their bread baskets, so to speak, because they pay the bills of the machines of war.

Mar 10, 2014 2:34pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ErnieScarr wrote:

China owns the US. They will do nothing. They can’t even make an anti-china movie like Red Dawn without censorship from their oriental masters.

Mar 10, 2014 3:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
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