Rebels declare victory in East Ukraine vote on self-rule

Comments (103)
lub wrote:

“Clashes flared anew on the outskirts of Slaviansk” as Kiev is mortar shelling the self-defense positions..

May 11, 2014 2:34am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

Putin’s a funny fish hey.

He rules by oppressing freedom and truth, gaining his popularity instead by extreme nationalism – creating division and hatred through propaganda and state controlled media. Exactly like Hitler, Putin needs constant enemies to rant against and spread fear through, all the while culturing corruption as he lines the pockets of his own, and his lackeys pockets with Russia’s plundered resources.

How can Putin’s style of leadership be described as anything other than fascism therefore?

And therein lies the reason for him being a funny fish.

The outcome for Putin with his oppression and hatred can only ever be disastrous.

Russia is not a good place to live for its common man already. That can only get worse with Putin’s policies, where desperately needed infrastructure spending is non-existent; squandered elsewhere for military or corrupted needs.

The average Joe in Russia lives little different to medieval times, yet Putin would rather paper over the cracks with propaganda than solve that crisis.

Add to that, the fact that every single one of Russia’s neighbors now fears and loathes it with a deep passion (Finland and Sweden are remarkably even joining the rush towards NATO), and you have a recipe for a truly abysmal future for Putin.

Trapped in his own extreme nationalist rhetoric however, I’m not sure he can actually do much to change things.

And so currently it is the poor people of Ukraine who are suffering at the hands of Putin’s twisted and perverse policies.

May 11, 2014 4:42am EDT  --  Report as abuse
lub wrote:

The governor of the Kherson region that borders the Donetsk region proved his loyalty to the Kiev junta. During his WWII victory day speech he said that Hitler was a liberator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebX6I2iYKM

May 11, 2014 5:26am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

Did the governor of the Kherson region really say that lub, or it is simply yet another skewed and spun half-truth which Putin’s propaganda machine uses to justify its aggression and oppression?

I suspect even you know its the latter.

I’m intrigued lub; what is your motive for supporting a clearly corrupt regime, to such detriment of your fellow, average man?

May 11, 2014 5:45am EDT  --  Report as abuse
chrisjoh wrote:

Once again the west has created a situation that has gone overboard.

No matter on which side of this issue you stand the fact is that Ukraine now has a non-elected government, the west heavily supported the uprising against an elected president, we now see similar outbreaks in eastern regions of Ukraine that of course are equally as heavily supported by Russia. Why are people so surprised by this and why is the west complaining when same strategies are used against what we see as our interests when we consider them legitimate actions when we support them? It doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t create an environment to build trust and stability.

I think western leaders should think twice before supporting uprisings all over the world (as we have done when it has been against leftist oriented governments and others who we haven’t been able to get along with) this attitude can easily spread here too, and all support for toppling governments we don’t like might just come back and bit us in the back! Why, because there are plenty of people, organizations, and governments out there that doesn’t agree with what we call democracy, and what we are now doing is giving them a legitimate reason to start similar uprisings here.

If an elected government can’t take a decision that might be unpopular without having senior members of foreign governments joining in street protests against its decisions then we are heading towards anarchy. We also would make it a legitimate action for, e.g. Russian or why not Iranian senior government members, to join in popular actions against decisions that western governments take. I don’t think that we would appreciate that kind of behavior on our turf and therefore we should not support it, and even worse participate in it in other countries.

May 11, 2014 6:52am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bunny490 wrote:

“Exactly like Hitler, Putin needs constant enemies to rant against and spread fear through, all the while culturing corruption as he lines the pockets of his own, and his lackeys pockets with Russia’s plundered resources.”

Sounds a little like the US at the moment as well. Funny how there always seems to be some threat, the next Hitler that justifies massive military expenditure and regime change, that must be confronted even if it means falsifying evidence to create the perception of threat. The only people that seem to benefit from these ventures seem to be the elite.

May 11, 2014 6:57am EDT  --  Report as abuse
CanRus wrote:

@JackHerer
Your post speaks for itself – spot on, no comment – except for the bit about the average Russian being not much better than in medeival times. Let’s not exaggerate – it’s not that bad – yet. :) I’m talking from firsthand experience here, not reading about it.

The average Ukrainian however, is probably going to find himself/herself even closer to that situation than Russians in the very near future – mainly thanks to Putin’s incessant war of hatred and aggression towards the people of Ukraine, including his “beloved” Russian speakers. Everyone in Ukraine is going to suffer. This war is as much waged using the Russian state-controlled media’s campaign of inciting terror through propaganda, than through the masked gunmen hired to cause more terror, death and destruction on the ground. Sadly, Russia has become not only a state sponsor of terrorism, but also state-run terrorism. I don’t think Putin cares. He’s got Crimea – for the moment he can party and the mindless “patriotic” masses will cheer him. To answer your rhetorical question, considering the average male lifespan in Russia – Putin has about 10-20 years left to pursue the only thing that matters to him – power. Once he’s gone, someone else will have to deal with the disaster he created. I think that’s his mindset.

May 11, 2014 7:04am EDT  --  Report as abuse
CanRus wrote:

As one of the people interviewed in Ukraine remarked, this “referendum” is meaningless – the war will go one and likely even worsen. The “result” has already been decided in advance. The pro-Russian gunmen will declare a major victory for independance and the fighting will continue. If Kiev manages to restore order, Putin will send in reinforments until the entire region plunges in guerilla warfare – at which point he’ll “have not choice” but to send in the Russian army to “protect the population” as he did before in parts of Moldova and Georgia. This is all a script directed by the Kremlin. Like Putin’s hollow appeal to postpone this ludicrous “referendum”. As if the people organizing it hadn’t been told to go ahead no matter what Putin says publicly. Nobody has been fooled – you’ll get your sanctions anyway.

May 11, 2014 7:14am EDT  --  Report as abuse
mcanterel wrote:

@JackHerer, oh dear, what can one say to a hack like you? Ptuin this, Putin that, today. Maduro this, Maduro that tomorrow. In 53, you would have been blabbing Mossadegh this, Mossadegh that. You are a tool for evil. Very useful, albeit so predictable. You have no opinion: you transcribe textbook propaganda, under many disguise, 8 to 5.

May 11, 2014 7:16am EDT  --  Report as abuse
westernshame wrote:

“”This is not a referendum. This is a desultory attempt by killers and terrorists to cover their activity,” he told a news conference.”

and this is different from their own rise to power? what makes their terrorist activities legitimate while these are not? oh yeah, that’s right, the US gave them the go ahead to attack the police with firebombs and beat people to death.

“”I want Donetsk to have its own powers, some kind of autonomy, separate from Kiev. I’m not against a united Ukraine, but not under those people we did not choose, who seized power and are going to ruin the country,” she said.”

this statement really says it all, it’s time to stop pretending the US vetted and installed regime is the legitimate voice of Ukraine. the international community needs to press for legitimate elections, not elections run by the illegitimate, unelected, putsch government.

May 11, 2014 7:22am EDT  --  Report as abuse
asoorma5 wrote:

If Kosovo can secede from Serbia,if Papua New Guinea can secede from Indonesia,if South Sudan can secede from Sudan, with the USA and EU’s support, why not East Ukraine? The interim government in Ukraine is an illegitimate one. The President is still Yakunovich. He could not have been removed by votes in Parliament (still 10 votes lacking)and Victoria Nuland and CIA and Pentagon working hard to ring Russia with their missile defense and pushing NATO’s boundaries to encircle Russia despite the agreement between Gorbachov and Bush senior not to enlarge NATO, what is left for Russia to do?
Putin is a patriot first and foremost. Defending the motherland is his primary duty.
Let USA and EU understand that there are consequences.
What will happen if different kinds of sanctions are applied against them? What if the $ loses is petro backing?

May 11, 2014 7:36am EDT  --  Report as abuse
SR37212 wrote:

@ Jack Herer: Rather than asking how many years the US has been at war since WW2 it would be easier to count the years the US hasn’t been at war.

Just remember Jack it was the EU having a pissy fit and sending in thugs to overthrown Another government that started all this.

May 11, 2014 7:46am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@mcanterel – Nobody buys me thanks, I’m not for sale. Read my posts if you don’t believe me, I’m clearly not a “hack.” I most definitely have my own opinions, they just happens to fly in the face of your bizarre, conspiracy ridden version of reality.

Your suggestion that someone is a “tool for evil” for speaking the truth about Putin for instance – you’d have to be seriously delusional with Kremlin propaganda to believe that one.

If Putin is the good guy, then why does he need to suppress the truth so much? Good guy’s don’t need wild conspiracy theories based on flimsy, unsubstantiated Chinese whispers, to justify their actions.

Putin, very clearly therefore, is not the good guy.

Do you actually know who Jack Herer is incidentally?

May 11, 2014 8:07am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Thingumbob wrote:

Why don’t these Russian speakers wake up & vote for impoverishing themselves under the freedom loving EU & IMF?

May 11, 2014 8:10am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Bunny490 – Be it East or West, the corrupt and the greedy among us benefit most in peace times not war.

That’s not true across the whole board of course. Military companies clearly do well out of war for instance. On the whole however, the vast spectrum of modern corporate life – from fashion to finance, from retail to tourism – takes a major unwanted dip in times of conflict.

The elites of this world get far richer shafting the hard working common man, than they do shafting each other.

That’s the truth, however much it doesn’t fit your anti-West conspiracy sentiment.

The West don’t want war. Obama’s weak assed actions alone prove that. Wars are expensive and unpopular these days. That’s a fact which Putin banks on from the West.

At the same time however, Putin needs division and hatred to fuel his popularity at home. That’s why he needs his Western conspiracies and supposed, constant enemies at Russia’s gate. And that’s why Putin needs his online apologists too – to propagate his propaganda spew in his eternal fight against the truth.

May 11, 2014 8:24am EDT  --  Report as abuse
paintcan wrote:

“Russian-speaking east, an industrial hub,” lost due to the stupidity of Yeltsin.

Ukraine was part of Russia since the early 17th century.

If the USA lost the prairie states it would be doing the same thing as the Russian government. And the rest of the federal union would be making every effort to coax or persuade the alienated territory to reunite.

Just how democratic “democracies” are is getting more theoretical everywhere.

BTW – The sanctions against Putin should really be against the whole Russian government. It is a democracy but sanctions against the entire government could be seen as an act of war by Russia.

May 11, 2014 8:31am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@paintcan – you’re kidding with your 17th century borders surely?

Or should America still be part of Britain in your head, and the Austro-Hungarians should be mobilizing now to re-annex the Czech Republic?

Jeez dude, I appreciate you want to defend and justify Putin and his aggression, but do you really need to live quite so deeply in the past to do so?

May 11, 2014 8:50am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@SR37212 – that’s the version of events as per Putin’s propaganda spew of course.

The truth is that Ukraine’s former president was laughably corrupt – with Michael Jackson style luxury and excess – and the people, very understandably, wanted him out.

Why you would want to defend these levels of corruption therefore – blaming Western conspiracies instead – is very strange.

It’s why many people have a strong suspicious that these, and other western news sites, are awash with paid Kremlin goons.

I mean who genuinely spends their time defending eye-watering levels of corruption?

May 11, 2014 8:58am EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

First of all, I admire the grit of the people of East Ukraine. This refenderum if not anything, is taking place to communicate that East Ukrainians have a legitimate voice in the affairs of the country and they deserve to be heard. They are saying a resounding ‘No’ to the US State Department puppets in Kiev implementing policies and spewing hatred that does not serve the interests of Eastern part of the country. They are expressing an over-whelming dissent on being branded as terrorists and being shot at when expressing their perpectives on the future of Ukraine.

These people deserve acknowledgement for their courage to stand-up against tanks/weapons and under-taking the best possible symbolic action under present circumstances. I hope the US State department registers the will of the over-whelming majority in East Ukraine and takes a step back before it creates yet another Iraq or Syria.

May 11, 2014 9:09am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Hahahappy wrote:

US involvement in the current situation, PROVEN!
Russian involvement has not been proven, all of some 100 or so people who have died so far are Ukrainian citizens. If the Russians were in the middle of this mess there would be some among the dead.
What Putin dose in Russia is a Russian problem and has nothing to do with Ukraine, so lets leave all that out of this desiccation.
In Crimea it was no secret what was happening Russia moved in and took it with the help of the people, simple. Why don’t they do the same now? The Ukrainian military wouldn’t dare come into the east, it would be suicide. Russia could take Eastern Ukraine without raising a sweat, possibly without firing a shot if they have the backing of the people. Maybe that was the problem, the people would not back them? Well Kiev is doing a good job at giving the people a reason to invite Russia to the party. The more civilians Kiev kill the more support Russia will get, not just in Ukraine but around the world.
The media releases are weighing more against the west and the blatant bias from western politicians in the face of irrefutable evidence is there for the world to see, or at least the ones who want to see.

May 11, 2014 9:38am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

asterix117 – I hate to be the one to shatter your comments, but surely a free vote is what Putin has been expressly trying to prevent in Syria.

Instead for Syria, Putin defends and arms a dictator who has been busy slaughtering the electorate.

Syria is Putin’s mess not the West. He, along with Assad, are clearly the main architects of that quagmire. It wasn’t the West’s idea to arm a cruel dictatorship to the teeth so that he can murder, torture, and rape en masse, with advanced weapons as his tools. That’s Putin’s idea of peace and democracy.

Putin, and his apologists of course, venomously defend the crushing of democracy in Syria, but now its suddenly the be all and end all for Eastern Ukraine. That’s if its a referendum to effectively join Russia of course – voting under the barrel of a AK47 too obviously – rather than a presidential election which would surely end any claim that the current Kiev government was un-elected.

The people who stood up to tanks and helicopters in Eastern Ukraine mysteriously had advanced weapons to defeat them. That speaks volumes about what types of people those are.

May 11, 2014 9:43am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Hahahappy – why did Putin have to lie so blatantly regarding Crimea then? Why did he have to totally deny the presence of Russian troops when the world could very clearly see they were there?

If Putin was on the right side, he wouldn’t have to use lies to justify his actions. Putin clearly isn’t on the right side therefore. One look at how he runs his own country with endemic corruption tells you that of course.

The big question therefore is Hahahappy; why are you so keen to defend such a corrupt and untruthful regime?

May 11, 2014 9:51am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Killy_Mel wrote:

JackHerer, I dont know bout me living like in Medieval times man… check your info, or just vist Moscow for once lol

May 11, 2014 10:18am EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@JackHerer

It is not about Putin or Syria. It is about what is fair to the people. I don’t care if Putin favoured or did not favour elections in Syria. It is about the people of East Ukraine and their desire to have a legitimate say in furture of their country. Millions are out on streets today disgusted at being labelled ‘terrorist’ and being shot at or burned alive. I am not talking about Putin’s hypocrisy but about the aspirations and concerns of people in East Ukraine. And I do believe this is the most appropriate symbolic action that these people could undertake to express their dissent with the present regime.

May 11, 2014 10:26am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Calfri wrote:

@Paintcan:”BTW – The sanctions against Putin should really be against the whole Russian government. It is a democracy but sanctions against the entire government could be seen as an act of war by Russia.”

Maybe your champion, Putin, will want a war, then. But surely if there is something more than sanctions substantially, such as the repositioning of troops, then Putin will also view that as an act of war. Economic sanctions should be imposed. Let’s avoid war by having those sanctions. Let Putin feel real economic pain, which sad to say means the Russian people, but also the oligarchs. The West, too. But Russia will feel the most pain, by far. The only ace in the hole for Putin is nukes. Does he want to launch nukes and have a nuclear war? Is he willing to? I don’t know. Probably not, but it’s possible. We don’t live in an entirely safe world. The West became complacent. It’s one thing Steven Cohen was right about, that Russia is fragile. At least, Putin is fragile. Maybe he needs a prescription of viagra to feel better about his manhood.

May 11, 2014 10:34am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Neurochuck wrote:

Here is a question:
Do you see history as shaped by leaders such as Putin, Obama, …, Stalin, Reagan, etc;
or by nationalistic, cultural and ethnic identity and common interests of groups;
or by economic and personal self interest of individuals selecting their preferred ideology and allegiances.
How does this apply in Ukraine ?

May 11, 2014 10:35am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Doc62 wrote:

Sad day for the Ukraine’s sovereirncy and freedom. Putin, like Lenin, is going to cruch all resistance and dissidents will “vanish” as usual.
I notice fierce and heavily armed Russians “guarding?” the polls, just like in Crimea. Vote for Putin or die! The minority can rule, especially when the boxes are purged of Ukrainian votes. Khrasho? Nyet!

May 11, 2014 10:41am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Killy_Mel – you need to venture outside Moscow once in a while, and see how your fellow countrymen struggle out in the sticks. Its not exactly downtown Dallas.

Although I appreciate CanRus’s comment that medieval is an exaggeration. My “little different to” adjective was probably not enough justification for that level of artistic licence to highlight the average Joe’s plight in Russia against woeful infrastructure spending.

Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that Putin has hardly created a Shangri La for his citizens. Instead he has squandered Russia’s resources on corruption and Stalin-esque showpieces, while its buildings, roads, and health services have crumbled.

The soccer World Cup in 2018 should be an eye-opener certainly. That’s if Sochi was anything to go by.

May 11, 2014 10:42am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@asterix117 – what you are essentially saying is that we should ignore how hypocritical, untruthful, and contradicting, Putin is, and just blindly follow his aims and policies anyway.

I hate to say this dude, but doesn’t that just make you a gullible, pliant, moron? In other words, you would be a dictator’s dream.

May 11, 2014 10:47am EDT  --  Report as abuse
BornNAmerica wrote:

It’s one thing to exercise democracy it’s another thing to practice deception and fraud in
the name of democracy..

May 11, 2014 11:00am EDT  --  Report as abuse
kommy wrote:

About 400 Americans from Greystone participate in the storm of Slavyansk, a stronghold of rebels. The former head of police in Mariupol, who incited the violence in his city led to the slaughter of 30 people, found hanging from an ash tree.

The Ukrainian MP and Nazi Lyashko has been caught in Mariupol, and now facing his own calling- to kill all the rebels.

May 11, 2014 11:22am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Hahahappy wrote:

If people are going to have guns pointed at them when they go to vote they will not go to vote, would you?

May 11, 2014 11:27am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bunny490 wrote:

@JackHerer I am Western, so not sure why you think I should be anti western. The elite do not necessarily benefit most from peace, you are assuming a benefit to the general economy equating to a maximum benefit to a very small minority.

For example, invade a country and destroy its infrastructure and rebuild said country. Very expensive for us as a whole, but those getting the contracts to rebuild do extremely well out of it, especially when they also get to pick up assets at knockdown prices.

Eisenhower warned about this as he was leaving office. Seems he was right to be worried:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY2DKzastu8

But if you want to believe that whoever your country is currently going up against that is always in the wrong and the latest reincarnation of Hitler then I will leave you to your dreamworld.

May 11, 2014 11:40am EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@JackHerer

I think it you who is gullible and completely moron.

If you want to draw parallels for objectivity. Please answer to me why the US administration and media labels opposition in Syria as freedom fighters while those dissenting in Ukraine as ‘terrorists’. US State department is the most unclean of any government entity world-over. I think in your little mind you want to see war games in Ukraine and an all-out blood-shed. What East Ukrainians are doing today is remarkable in every single way. They simply do not subscribe to the policies and politics of hatred being advocated by the US installed right-sector thugs in Kiev. And they are speaking out against it despite being labelled ‘terrorists’, being shot at and being burned alive.

You want to justify burning in Odessa because Syria burned too. What a fool’s excuse. If that is the logic then all nations of the world must burn too.

May 11, 2014 11:46am EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@Hahahappy

I completely agree with your logic. Millions have come out to vote today. How can few hundred wielding guns ensure this kind of turn-out. It is time the US and Kiev open their eyes at the extent of dissent against the installed regime in Kiev. But sadly the US state department does not know to back off. They would rather have a massacre there than a peaceful compromise that may benefit all.

May 11, 2014 11:54am EDT  --  Report as abuse
kommy wrote:

The referendum is a story of courage and civil resolve. People come to the polling stations despite of death squadrons from Kiev raiding their homes an cities.

It is like Salvador or Honduras allover again. The death squadrons supported by US raiding and killing people indiscriminately.

May 11, 2014 11:59am EDT  --  Report as abuse
dennisc wrote:

I don’t care what Kiev says I don’t think that the votes are false.I would expect that reaction from the leaders of the coup.They can come in and overthrow a Democratically elected Government and expect the people to bow? I don’t think so.

May 11, 2014 12:08pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

“Issues of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum.”
Constitution of Ukraine, 2010
Chapter III: Elections. Referendum
Article 73
(http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2010)

May 11, 2014 12:10pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
AlfNeuman wrote:

Donetsk wants less to be part of Russia than they want to escape a coup imposed fascist regime in Kiev sending paramilitaries to kill them.

May 11, 2014 12:14pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

Designate Russia as “State Sponsor of Terrorism”:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/designate-russia-state-sponsor-terrorism/XMjbTltM
Please Sign Today, Pass Along!

May 11, 2014 12:37pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@UauS

How about doing the same for the US State Department. Let us put this for vote world-over. I am sure the US State Department will win hands-down in this contest.

May 11, 2014 12:53pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Lavrentii wrote:

Why does Reuters, and the rest of western media insist on dancing around the fact that the US spent $5 billion to foment the coup in Kiev, going so far as to pass out cookies at rallies (Nuland) and then sending in CIA director and even Vice President of US?

I’ll say why; it’s because the owners of all this corporate media are the same as those who own the US government, and so they are one and the same entity.

These wannabes in Kiev were hand picked by US corporate government to meet the objectives of an insatiably expansionist West/NATO.

Yes, the corrupt Yanukovich did turn down the EU deal, but why?
The EU deal was for 17 billion, interest to be added, and requiring Ukraine to cut already meager pensions of Ukrainians, and requiring an increase in fuel prices.

The Russia offer to Ukraine was for 15 billion with zero interest or single string attached, AND they got a 30% discount on fuel from Russia.
Yanukovich did the right thing by his country, obviously, but he foiled the $5 billion plan of corporate USA/EU to extract wealth from Ukraine, and boy, are they mad!

May 11, 2014 12:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

Russia has military bases in S and C America and the Caribbean. Now they are financing a coup in Mexico to – as they have said repeatedly – put “defensive” missiles in Northern Mexico. Does the US sit on its hands ? Remember the Cuban missile crisis ? NATO has gobbled up 10 or more countries in Eastern Europe that were supposed to be left neutral. That is the problem. The bonehead folly (McCain standing on Khreschatyk warning that interference by outside govts is unacceptable – what a clown) of cramming NATO and missiles down Putin’s throat in Ukraine is just a waste of the $5Bn Nuland has admitted we’ve spent on this coup.

May 11, 2014 1:04pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

USATODAY.com – Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link. Why do you think Americans were so wrong for so long ? The government lied and it was reported BY THE MEDIA as true. Repeatedly.
Just know we are being lied to. Russia is NOT our enemy no matter how hard NATO tries to revive its former mission to contain the USSR. Time to get rid of NATO – this stunt of provoking Putin to prove NATOs usefulness just shows how out of control this whole thing is.

May 11, 2014 1:06pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Lavrentii wrote:

Why does Reuters, and the rest of western media insist on dancing around the fact that the US spent $5 billion to foment the coup in Kiev, going so far as to pass out cookies at rallies (Nuland) and then sending in CIA director and even Vice President of US?

I’ll say why; it’s because the owners of all this corporate media are the same as those who own the US government, and so they are one and the same entity.

These wannabes in Kiev were hand picked by US corporate government to meet the objectives of an insatiably expansionist West/NATO.

Yes, the corrupt Yanukovich did turn down the EU deal, but why?
The EU deal was for 17 billion, interest to be added, and requiring Ukraine to cut already meager pensions of Ukrainians, and requiring an increase in fuel prices.

The Russia offer to Ukraine was for 15 billion with zero interest or single string attached, AND they got a 30% discount on fuel from Russia.
Yanukovich did the right thing by his country, obviously, but he foiled the $5 billion plan of corporate USA/EU to extract wealth from Ukraine, and boy, are they mad!

May 11, 2014 1:07pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Nina2127 wrote:

@JackHerer,

Jack, unless you have actually lived in Russia or Ukraine, you have no idea. Everything you say..whether its about Ukraine, Syria, Russia, dictatorship etc is based you the MEDIA of your country says!!!If someone else, has different opinion, its not because someone paid them, its because they either live there! or they watch their MEDIA, to form their opinion. So I would strongly advise you, before criticizing to open your mind, stop watching CNN, and look around for different sources. Youtube is actually better than CNN as it has videos taken by people there. You can also look in forums where local people discuss. But for that you have to be able to accept opinions that are sometimes not the same to US Government. How can you even still completely trust your media after the war in Iraq…where CNN and all channels were certain about nuclear weapons… doesnt that give you a bit of hint, to double check the information you hear??

May 11, 2014 1:11pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

I am very pleased to see that people some here must watch the foreign news. Lavrentii, asterix117, AlfNeuman and some others SEE the heavy hand of the US and NATO caused this problem.
I am a military brat and I hate to see our military abused. Why is it that we have $5 Bn+ to poke Putin in the eye while our vets die waiting for even a Dr appointment. Why don’t we bring those few dozen clever people in Kyiv home and put them to work on the VA ?

May 11, 2014 1:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

I am very pleased to see that people some here must watch the foreign news. Lavrentii, asterix117, AlfNeuman and some others SEE the heavy hand of the US and NATO caused this problem.
I am a military brat and I hate to see our military abused. Why is it that we have $5 Bn+ to poke Putin in the eye while our vets die waiting for even a Dr appointment. Why don’t we bring those few dozen clever people in Kyiv home and put them to work on the VA ?

May 11, 2014 1:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

I am very pleased to see that people some here must watch the foreign news. Lavrentii, asterix117, AlfNeuman and some others SEE the heavy hand of the US and NATO caused this problem.
I am a military brat and I hate to see our military abused. Why is it that we have $5 Bn+ to poke Putin in the eye while our vets die waiting for even a Dr appointment. Why don’t we bring those few dozen clever people in Kyiv home and put them to work on the VA ?

May 11, 2014 1:17pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
davcer wrote:

I am a military brat and I hate to see our military abused. Why is it that we have $5 Bn+ to poke Putin in the eye while our vets die waiting for even a Dr appointment. Why don’t we bring those few dozen clever people in Kyiv home and put them to work on the VA ?

May 11, 2014 1:17pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
gunste wrote:

What are the odds that opponents of severing ties to the Ukraine will be able to vote without intimidation?????
Will the “activists”be policing the polls???

May 11, 2014 1:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@Lavrentii

Having strong back-ground in economics, I agree with the assessment that Russian offer was far more lucrative for Ukraine. Add following to the stated facts: severing ties with Russia (an agenda out-lined by the right-sector in Kiev) would seriously damage industries in East Ukraine that supply almost all it’s production to Russia. Moreover, the increased fuel costs as a result of IMF/EU package would further diminish competitiveness of heavy industries in East Ukraine – leading to mass closures, unemployment and poverty. Yanukovych just chose the better offer and what was more suitable for stability in East Ukraine – his core support base.

It is funny what started as dissent against consequent inept governments was quickly high-jacked by Western media as propaganda against Russia. The illegimate government in Kiev after grabbing power quickly passed laws against Russian language and moved to unlawfully cancel the agreement for stationing of Black Fleet in Crimea – thus setting the stage for confrontation and hate politics. US State Department for it’s own geo-political gains is driving Ukraine towards split and economic suicide.

May 11, 2014 1:19pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

Russia is orchestrating everything, all the time. As if there are no conductors on the other side.

May 11, 2014 1:24pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
momo51 wrote:

Onee

May 11, 2014 1:28pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
momo51 wrote:

One question to the Americans. What the hell are you doing in … Ukraine ??? Most of them don’t even know where it is. Haven’t they learn from all the disastrous incursions around the world that end up in destroyed countries. Why doesn’t this nation mind their their own business and stop policing the world for their sole benefit. That said there is very decent and brilliant people in that country but they are afraid of speaking out their mind. You should listen to them.

May 11, 2014 1:40pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Lavrentii – the simple answer as to why the Western media has ignored the $5 billion funding of the “coup” by the US, is that it is unsubstantiated crap.

If the Western media had run with that story, they’d have also run with the Twin Towers being brought down by energy beams, or missiles, or Thermite, or whatever the loony conspiracy theorists decided on, similarly based on cherry picked, skewed Chinese whispers.

May 11, 2014 1:45pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

FOR THOSE THAT ARE MISSING THE POINT, ONCE AGAIN:

“Issues of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum.”

Constitution of Ukraine, 2010
Article 73
Chapter III: Elections. Referendum
(http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2010)

May 11, 2014 1:59pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
yurakm wrote:

Sorry for the long link:

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Survey/2014/~/media/Files/Publications/Survey/2014/2014_Ukraine_Survey_Presentation_Slides_English.pdf

As you will see in pages 24-26, 65% (i.e. about 2/3) of Ukrainian citizens – not only at East and South – believe that the best government system for their country would where be regional governments have substantial authority on economic, cultural, and political rights. Only 16% (~ 1/6) of Ukrainian citizens have the opposite believes. Given the survey was run by American researchers and it was funded by the US government, it definitely is not a Russian propaganda. Ukrainian citizens are tired of Kiev deciding everything for them, even more that Kiev turned to be incompetent again and again.

It follows that the so-named referendum likely would be popular not only in the two rebellious rust belt mining regions, but in most of Ukraine.

May 11, 2014 2:06pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
itsmysayokay wrote:

What a crock of refried beans! This illegal attempt backed by Russia is an attempt at another land grab period.They are trying to break up Ukraine and it aint gonna happen! Putin will falll hard on this one or WW111 is inevitable.

May 11, 2014 2:07pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
yurakm wrote:

@ JackHerer, @Lavrentii

Western media did not run the story because it is not interesting. However, it was published – not by “skewed Chinese whispers”, but on the website of the US government, or more precisely the State Department:

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2013/dec/218804.htm

Quote: “Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.”

May 11, 2014 2:17pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Fromkin wrote:

@Laventrii

I agree with your post except that the US/EU deal was for 650 million Euro, not 17 billion. They only started talking about 17 billion for propaganda. Until now I don’t think coup imposed goons in Kiev have received more than a few millions. Indeed Russian deal was better for Ukraine and did not threaten its independence and impose austerity like IMF/western deal.

May 11, 2014 2:21pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@UauS

Well, in Kosavo’s case the UN established that regions do not need central government’s approval in organizing referendum to seek independence. I think international law supercedes national constitution. Otherwise, no people no matter how repressed they are will never be able to voice dissent against an oppressive government. Burning citizens alive like in Odessa or sending tanks against unarmed citizens is the worst form of aggression imaginable.

May 11, 2014 2:29pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Fromkin wrote:

This is a lesson for western politicians who think that they have the natural right to go anywhere and destroy other countries and cultures. Their double standard and hypocrisy are starting to catch up to them. One can criticize an undemocratic coup in one country and promote the very same thing in another.

May 11, 2014 2:36pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@asterix117 – why are the Ukrainian “rebels” different from the Syrian “rebels?”

Well where to begin really.

Firstly the Syria uprising began with peaceful protesters, not balaclava’ed thugs seizing government buildings.

Secondly, when the government Syria came to stop those demonstrations, they weren’t immediately met with mysterious top end military hardware.

Thirdly, whatever you level against the Ukrainian government – whom, I might add, are exactly the same democratically elected representatives as before in their parliament, only their laughably corrupt leader has gone – have used nothing like the extreme force used by Assad’s brutal regime in Syria. The use of barrel bombs, and cluster bombs, and scuds, is A-OK with Putin in Assad’s crushing of democracy. Mass gassing of innocents is fine too. Even the U.N. investigated and proven rape of thousands of Syrian children by Assad’s forces is fine and dandy with Putin.

Putin even arms Assad for his gruesome and evil task.

But, let me guess, Putin is the good guy in your head? Pull the other one.

Putin similarly applauded the mass slaughter of peaceful protesters in Egypt too of course.

Lastly, some other interested party didn’t suddenly annex parts of Syria prior to its revolution, as Russia did with Crimea. Even Putin’s paid apologists can’t deny the rottenness of Russia’s involvement in Ukraine, as compared with no similar engagement in Syria.

That’s just off the top of my head too. That list is far from exhaustive therefore.

May 11, 2014 2:42pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Gunnerman wrote:

@JackHerer

The proof that Victoria Nuland was behind the $5 billion coup d’état fund is indisputable just Google it for plenty of evidence.
CCN, FOX, BBC and SKY are completely bias and if that is your only form of information then there is no wonder that your comments are deluded.

May 11, 2014 2:48pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
chyron wrote:

@UauS
There’s some thing called ‘self determination’.
Of course USA thinking that Kossovar can use it doesn’t mean that USA thinks it’s allowed for Novorossia.

And anyway, only legit President or Rada can propose that – but first is deposed by coup while second is de facto taken hostage (thus number of senators either fled country or repeatedly didn’t allowed to vote).

May 11, 2014 2:49pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
mcanterel wrote:

@JackHerer, reading you? You mean you honestly think people believe in the authenticity of your “good guy”, “bad guy” TPM?

You are beyond laughable.

Of course your “opinion” just happens to coincide with neocon blabber. Your “opinion”? Really? Same as Mrs “F*** the EU”? Too bad, people all over the world cannot see “reality” through your lenses!

Must be frustrating… (loud laughters)

May 11, 2014 3:01pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
asterix117 wrote:

@JackHerer

No, I am not a Putin’s fan. But I am definitely sick of careless and arrogant US interventions in Iraq, in Syria and now in Ukraine.US State Department never bothers to understand sensitivities in a particular region before butting in. They just react greedily and hastily on any opportunity that presents itself. It disgusted me the way Nuland talked about political situation in Ukraine like it was some game of chess. And I am just so tired of the predictable way in which US war propaganda works: first Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction (more than 134,000 died since US intervention), then Assad is supressing Syrian citizens (over 100,000 dead and millions displaced since the US started arming extremists in opposition) and now East Ukrainians are terrorists (including hundreds of thousands who turned out today to exercise their right for self-determination) and Putin is a villian who wants World War Three. Come on, give it a break. Enough is enough!

May 11, 2014 3:20pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Nina2127 – I happily decry the Iraq debacle; then and now.

Iraq is the rock round the West’s neck, which currently allows sick dictators to run amok on a slaughter and rape fest.

Read my older posts to know my thoughts on Iraq.

Iraq isn’t going to suddenly make me lose my mind however, to ignore all Western media in favor of the clear propaganda of the state based media of Russia.

May 11, 2014 3:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@mcanterel – dude, your conspiracy laden head currently appears to be spinning at around Mach 4.

My opinion doesn’t happen to “coincide with neocon blabber.”

Read my posts on Israel for instance. I happily identify them as the pariah state that they are, with their selfish actions causing misery the world over.

The only thing I do in fact which you can label me as a “bad guy,” is disagree with Putin’s propaganda spew. That’s clearly an insane reason to label anyone as bad however.

As a friendly suggestion therefore, the words you are looking for in this scenario are probably “sensible” or “reasoned,” not “bad.”

Hope that helps :)

May 11, 2014 3:35pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Bunny490 – are you seriously suggesting that the elite of the this world – from all their different spheres of industry and commerce – all know that there is a war on the horizon, and they all invest accordingly in war related stocks, or whatever, but this vast shifting of finances is kept silent on the world’s money markets, and it somehow offsets the huge dip in stocks on the vast area of non-military fields?

Apologies for a quick follow up question therefore; but do you have even have a basic grasp of economics, because, from where I’m looking, that doesn’t appear to be the case?

May 11, 2014 3:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@CanRus

You seem to indicate first-hand knowledge of Russian realities and, at the same time, admire the rubbish that JackHerer is spewing out.
Perhaps, you could address some of his/her symptoms by answering his question
JackHerer wrote:
Did the governor of the Kherson region really say that …?

The link lub posted has English translation, but you might perhaps tell JackHerer whether it indeed is a faithful translation.
In case it is – and it appears so, because any type like you could then challenge the authenticity of the translation, – that mayor appointed by the new Kiev interim government is just another ne-Nazi Hitler apologist. No wonder here, though.

May 11, 2014 5:23pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Killy_Mel wrote:

JackHerer, you have to relax man, yea we got problems, but Russia is not worst place on earth… Putin will go eventually, but for now he is doing his job. Restoring military and Russian influence on international arena. Remember that after USSR collaped Russia was not even taken seriously

May 11, 2014 5:26pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaulBradley wrote:

Every government/regime has its ‘good’ AND ‘evil’ elements. The key is to be able to determine the percentage representing each side and, therefore, which has the most influence on given government’s decision-making.

The question is by what means do we determine the ‘good’ and the ‘evil’ since it’s very arbitrary as you can see by the various classification of the ‘bad’ and/or ‘evil’ in the case of the current situation taking place in the Ukraine just by reading all the posts here.

You can just read the ‘reasoning’ expressed as ‘facts’ in the variety of opinions published here as comments.

Some people like to adopt the rhetoric published in the Putin-controlled media and some tend to express their opinion based on the ‘western’ media reporting. Due to scepticism on the validity of reporting from each ‘side’, people simply take sides and defend each accordingly. In a sense, this behaviour represents believe in either ‘black’ or ‘white’ as there would not exist ‘gray’. And, it’s the ‘gray’ which is the type of information that could lead many people to make more valid unbiased assessment of a given situation. Unfortunately, the majority of us are prohibited by knowing the ‘gray’.

For example – - many people adopted the anti-fascist and/or anti-Nazi rhetoric yet seemingly without respect to the ‘gray’ matter of Nazism that brought to the world tremendous technological and scientific advancement enjoyed by all ‘industrial nations’ on this Earth – for example U.S.A., thanks to Nazi scientists, was capable to land on the Moon, etc., etc., etc., Soviet Union’s space exploration and military technological advancements are directly attributed to Nazi engineers, scientists, etc., imported to the country after the WW2.

Same with Hitler – - we have learned in school how evil Hitler was, yet, the fact that he managed to raise Germany from an economically ruined country into an economic power, raising the German average citizen’s standard of living to a level unheard of prior to Hitler’s taking the reigns. Seems, all these things are overshadowed by the ‘one-way’ (biased) teaching of the history. When the Ukrainians say that Hitler ‘freed them’, at one point in the history, only means that when the Germans came to Ukraine, the people were NOT starving and overall standard of living went up instead of down. Stalin, on the other hand, managed to starve to death millions of Ukrainians.

One of the commentators here, for example, in support of pro-Putin movement, published opinion paralleling Ukraine situation to one prior to invasion of Iraq were the American public supported the invasion based on false ‘manufactured’ reasons in terms of existence of WMD’s in Iraq.

The writer sees only either the ‘white’ or ‘black’, yet totally ignoring the ‘gray’ to make his point. The fact that it was the Mossad that spread false intelligence all over the world, that most of the governments, including a given country’s majority of its citizenry, BELIEVED the Mossad’s effective propaganda conveniently escaped the writer’s attention. If I would have to make the same case, as the writer suggests, I could ‘conveniently’ twist it in a manner that would prove that the current ‘masses’ that are voting in the east Ukraine were easily brainwashed to vote for Putin-prefered direction and show the successful Mossad’s brainwashing the public into believing that invading Iraq was the ‘right’ thing to do and in fact in the name of ‘national security’. Except, Mossad forgot to mention in the name of whose country’s national security. Yes, WE WERE CONNED, that’s all – - same as possibly are the Ukrainians hoarding to vote because they believe that their leaders in Kiev are evil Nazis and that under Putin-led system, their standard of living will go up – - namely their retirement payments.

Seems, like NO ONE seem to be thinking about LONG-TERM effect. Some commentators argue that Putin gave Ukraine ‘better deal’ than the EU. And, I tend to agree, however, that to me also represented CONTEMPORARY ‘FIX’ rather than Long-Term economic plan for Ukraine to GROW systematically and only showed, to me, that all Putin wanted is an economic status quo – i.e. total economic dependency on Russia and it escapes me WHY couldn’t Ukraine do ‘business’ with both blocks, Russie as well as with EU. EU, on the other hand, saw economic growth of Ukraine in a long-term picture, same as the U.S. The 5 billion is an aggregate figure spent over many years to build foundation for future economic growth of the country and NOT, as some ‘twisters’ try to label it.

The way I see it, if you want to build a house, you HAVE to build a solid foundation upon which the whole structure will stand for many years to come. ‘Fix’ by just patching the holes in the roof, for example, is just a temporary fix that has not much of a long-term impact.

May 11, 2014 5:31pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ChrisHerz wrote:

Who are the “rebels?” Those who are loyal to the former, elected government, now fled to Russia, or those working for the Western-supported putschists?

May 11, 2014 5:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
mcanterel wrote:

@JackHerer, international man of manicheism. Read your posts, and see how you are unelegantly spewing the certficates of “good” and “bad” behaviour (YOUR words).

You probably know zilch about Ukraine, and about Russia, but you decided for free or for pitance to further the propaganda “opinion” of your country’s government.

You’d be less shocked people do not think much of your talking points if you just lived for a while outside your bubble.

But then again, that supposes you really have an opinion. Which I do not believe you have. I read many of your posts, and I think you are, voluntarly or not, a NATO shill. Keep repeating the “conspiracy” defense, won’t cut it with most people anymore.

Let me give you a hint: if Putin was the “bad guy” you are so sure of, try convincing the majority of Russians who think otherwise. Maybe you would like to force them to think otherwise?

So typical.

May 11, 2014 5:46pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
jim_seattle wrote:

UaS newsflash, all revolutions and civil wars are a violation of their states constitution. It doesn’t make said conflict less legitimate.

May 11, 2014 5:47pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

@asterix117

Speaking of international law…

Here’s the UN vote on Crimea, Ukraine:
1. “Backing Ukraine’s territorial integrity, UN Assembly declares Crimea referendum invalid.”
(http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47443#.U2_sa-LzfHo)
2. “General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not
To Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region”
(http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/ga11493.doc.htm)

Here is more:
3. “The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine,… to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”
(http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)

And here’s more:
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.”
(Attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

May 11, 2014 5:54pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@PaulBradley

First part of your post sounds a lot like you are a Nazi apologist. Please, let us be clear. There should be ZERO tolerance for Nazi and neo-Nazi elements in the Government. That’s it. Fullstop. This one particular shade of black MUST be absent in the political spectrum. No blah-blah-blah about shades-of-gray and/or of good-evil parts of a government change this. And, unfortunately, the new interim Kiev government does not satisfy this fundamental requirement. Just look at their appointee in Kherson speaking, the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebX6I2iYKM
was posted by lub.

Let me try explaining one of the million other arguments why Nazi ideology is such a crap. In fact, it is based upon a logical absurdity.
First, it assumes that one particular ethnicity/nation/race, say aryan (olr Ukrainian) is actually better than others, more deserving to live and reproduce, and to populate the “liebensraum”. Logically, this would imply that under conditions of equal rights and opportunities with other ethnic/racial groups in a given country, the chosen “better” one will have numerous advantages over other, “subhuman” ethnicities/races. This would allow it to thrive and dominate a country/society. Introducing laws that favor this “chosen” ethnic/racial group in a society by giving it more rights and opportunities in the government is not only not needed – it also contradicts the very initial assumption. That the “chosen” nation already has the most important advantage by way of being the “chosen”, better one. And so it would come ahead in an open and equal competition with others under the equal conditions for all.

In other words, you either believe that your “chosen nation” is better than others, and then you do not need Nurenberg-type laws limiting the rights of others. Or, you do adopt such laws, and that means that you do not really believe that your “chosen” nation would cut the edge in an open and equal-opportunity competition.

May 11, 2014 6:27pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaperTrails wrote:

Oleksandr Turchynov, Western puppet, and
The Butcher of Odessa and Mauriupol

May 11, 2014 7:14pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
nickir wrote:

Why does anyone care if a seriously failed bit of a failed state joins another failed state?

May 11, 2014 7:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
nickir wrote:

Why does anyone care if a seriously failed bit of a failed state joins another failed state?

May 11, 2014 7:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaulBradley wrote:

@BraveNewWrld

Re-read your comment and tell me what are you talking about – - Nazi Germany system or Judaism and Judaism as foundation of Zionism which was in Europe propagated long before Nazis came to existence. Or, I you referring to Israel’s policies of the ‘chosen’ people or WHAT, since I don’t see any difference between Hitler’s political agenda and Israel’s Netanyahu. ??

All I was trying to say in my comment that NOTHING is ‘clear cut’ as some of the commentators make it appear. I am not taking ANY sides per se. Just making observation that a lot of you people indicate vacuum in knowledge thanks to our biased teaching of history or propagated as news by the media – west or Russian – and that readers’ scepticism abounds for various reasons on ‘both sides’.

If you like to ‘cherry-pick’ in order to ‘shine’ as the omniscient, be my guest. Evidently, you have no clue what trying to form an ‘unbiased’ opinion means. You evidently also refuse to believe that a coin has two different sides. You seem to make your own – - i.e. a coin with both side being the same.

You call yourself “BraveNewWrld” – - you might be right at that since I could probably be your grandpa and if you represent the generation of the Brave New World, then, no wonder the whole world is in total disarray . . .

May 11, 2014 7:19pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ruffsoft wrote:

Ukraine’s Interior Ministry called the eastern referendum a criminal farce, its ballot papers “soaked in blood”.

So says a man who came to power through a violent overthrow of the elected government and impeached him based on an unconstitutional Parliament vote, which lacked a quorum and was not submitted to the Supreme Court, per the Constitution. Instead, this illegal Junta, which took power through armed neo-Nazi thugs, fired the Supreme Court and (again, in violation of the existing Constitution) adopted a different Constitution.

People who live in glass houses smeared with blood should not throw stones.

May 11, 2014 7:23pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

@jim_seattle wrote: “all revolutions and civil wars are a violation of their states constitution.”

1. revolutions and civil wars do not imply land annexation by another country.
2. are we talking about revolutions and civil wars or validity of a referendum?
3. your/Putin lies don’t stand a chance, whatever way you try to twist the FACTS.

May 11, 2014 7:32pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ruffsoft wrote:

Serhiy Pashinsky, head of the Ukrainian presidential administration, said if the independence referendums:

“This is not a referendum. This is a desultory attempt by killers and terrorists to cover their activity,”

This is the same then MP member who was caught with a sniper’s rifle in Independence Square after the massacre of protesters (which the opposition blamed on the elected President):

1) Video of Ex Ukranian Prime Minister Under Timoshenko, Sergei Pashinsky, caught with sniper rifle and silencer leaving Independence Square after massacre of protesters:
http://www.liveleak….3e0_1392899402�

(2) Also, audio tape with Estonian PM explaining how transitional govt in Ukraine trying to stop investigation of massacre:
http://nsnbc.me/2014…on-reveals-k…

(3) This further confirms the likelihood that Ukrainian fascists currently leading the transitional government initiated the murder of protesters to support “regime change” and ascend to power (that they could not gain democratically at the ballot box). Read more:
http://nsnbc.me/2014…ng-supporter…”

globaldiscussion.net

The man caught with a sniper’s rifle in the middle of a “peaceful protest” is the last person who should be talking about killers and terrorists.

May 11, 2014 7:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
pyanitsa wrote:

@UauS

In the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, Russia, the U.S., and the UK agreed that they would:

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4. Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

On point 1, the US State Dept through Asst Sec of State Nuland violated the sovereignty of Ukraine by aiding and abetting the overthrow of its legally elected government, violating the Ukrainian constitution and openly supporting treasonous acts against a sovereign government.

On point 3, the US reneged on its obligations under the memorandum not to use economic pressure by spending $5 billion to influence Ukraine’s internal politics.

Last but not least, on point 6, the US State Dept intentionally staged the riots in Kiev while the Russian leadership was preoccupied with the Sochi Olympics. It expressed its disdain for consultation graphically with Nuland’s words “Fuck the EU!”.

Don’t complain about breaking points in the memorandum. You broke quite a few.

As for the quote from Moynihan, he wrote it in the context of the War on Poverty.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a Tufts Ph.D. in Sociology and US Senator published his report “The Negro Family: The Case for National Action” in 1965 while he was Assistant Sec of Labor.He wrote “it turned out that what everyone knew was evidently not so.”

Four years before that study, the Soviet Union in 1961 established the Patrice Lumumba or People’s Friendship University in Moscow. The university is named after Patrice Lumumba, one of the symbols of the African peoples’ fight for independence. Its stated objective was to help nations of the Third World. Patrice Lumumba was the first democratically elected prime minister of the Republic of the Congo. He came to an untimely end, executed by firing squad under the command of a Belgian officer. Both Belgium and the United States actively sought to have him killed. His execution was protested in the UN by the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples’_Friendship_University_of_Russia

Moynihan was more aligned with Russia than you might think.

May 11, 2014 7:44pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

@ruffsoft: your entire post, including references, contains no facts, but rather a bunch of very biased opinions and information that can not be independently verified.

As the saying goes, “Truth is the first casualty of war”, which has been brilliantly exploited by Putin’s propaganda machine.

May 11, 2014 8:03pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
mils54 wrote:

Gee what a supprise!!.

May 11, 2014 8:14pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

@pyanitsa: I don’t trust/want/need your interpretations, thanks. I trust in verifiable facts and sources (quotes) regarding the validity of this so-called “referendum”. Unfortunately, your post does not contain any of them.

May 11, 2014 8:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@PaulBradley wrote:
You call yourself “BraveNewWrld” –
That is to indicate that I perhaps do realize something about the world we live in. Here is a short summary – FYI, look it up!

http://biblioklept.org/2013/06/08/huxley-vs-orwell-the-webcomic-2/

Perhaps, some of us on this board are somewhat better informed than you might think?

May 11, 2014 8:17pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
chyron wrote:

> UauS wrote:
>1. revolutions and civil wars do not imply land annexation by >another country.
>2. are we talking about revolutions and civil wars or validity of a >referendum?
>3. your/Putin lies don’t stand a chance, whatever way you try to >twist the FACTS.

So US should give back Te_j_as to it’s righful owners? )

May 11, 2014 8:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
YesNoMaybeSo wrote:

Yeah, agreed, the vote was a little silly and not well managed. That said, I wish the people of East Ukraine peace, hopefully in a new country called “East Ukraine” or something. If Russia ends up annexing more of Ukraine, the hurt will be felt around the globe, Putin must have more sense than that.

May 11, 2014 8:29pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
pyanitsa wrote:

“The first casualty when war comes is truth,”

was coined by Hiram Johnson a staunchly isolationist California senator who served in the United States Senate for nearly 30 years, beginning in World War I and concluding with his death in 1945, coincidentally on the same day the U.S. dropped its first atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

May 11, 2014 8:33pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
pyradius wrote:

Wow, was NOT expecting that! Was expecting to see:

“Rebels determine Eastern Ukraine wants to stay united. They hung up their AK’s and went home. “Sorry about that, our bad!”

May 11, 2014 8:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
jrpardinas wrote:

Congratulations!

The ethnic Russians in East Ukraine may yet dodge the fate of the scores of their kin incinerated alive in the Trade Union House in Odessa.

Putin will be forever damned by history if he doesn’t come to their aid, openly or covertly, when the West finally sends in the tanks.

May 11, 2014 8:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
paintcan wrote:

@JackJerrer- not to let your remark go unanswered. In other words Ukraine was a very old part of Russia and predated the USSR. This country is younger then the Ukraine was part of Russia. And some of its states are far younger It is unusual for old territories of the world to break up. Yeltsin and his government were incompetent.

And if it’s legitimate for such old territories to claim their independence, I wonder how long it will be before this country sees a similar breakup? If language is the legitimate reason for partition of a state than the southwest states of this country could have a reason to break out on their own and also a reason to reunite with a country of the same language. You can look at Ukraine as proving both principals. The southwest states could, by popular will ala Ukraine under Yeltsin, It would also free many Hispanic Americans and the rest of the country of the need for excessive border control? It could become an autonomous region with Spanish as the primary language. And it would tale Putinesque aggression to pull it back – wouldn’t it?

Think of it this way. There is nothing that really prevents the USA form becoming a failed state too. It doesn’t look like a possibility now but things can change. If its currency looses the status and value it now has (and it is likely too, eventually) what is to prevent states and regions from claiming their own destiny and basing their welfare and on the only thing that may have value; their own resources?

And that is just what the Yeltsin years did to Russia.
This is not a crazy idea at all and you underestimate how strange the turns history can take really can be.

You also make a mistake thinking I’m trying to boost anyone’s position. I am thinking out loud and think this is what the Russians mean. If I were Russian I would be supporting Putin too. It may be good thinking because we may have to support someone like him ourselves in this country someday, that is if you want a single large country?

May 11, 2014 8:40pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
mrnukem wrote:

This is not an American problem and at this point I think we here in the USA have had too many years of war, too many years of being the worlds police force. It is time for America to focus on issues here at home. This is an problem for the EU to take care of, unless Russia attacks a NATO member state. There is little the west can do to stop Putin and his land grabs and as an American I would not support any military action again unless a NATO member state was attacked.

To blindly believe there are no spheres of influence even after the cold war has been over is foolish, the west has an expanded NATO alliance and Russia has the former soviet states. I have a feeling Putin will over reach very soon and have a batch of civil wars in those former soviet states, when the body bags come home holding young Russian soldiers the nationalism will start to wear off as more Russian mothers bury their dead sons due to Putins dreams of empire.

May 11, 2014 8:44pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

I am afraid this is not about Putin. We need to look deeper to understand the sources of these crisis. Regardless of how authoritarian or totalitarian he is, he is not really a culprit of what we are seeing in Ukraine. Putin is merely reacting and taking full political advantage form the geopolitical challenges being instigated in Russia’s backyard. I tend to think that anyone if he or she were put in Putin’s shoes would likely to take similar auctions. If Russia is unable to respond in a decisive manner to such threats as – well financed and organized regime change in the neighboring Ukraine – it would risk losing its authority as an international player. Clearly NATO/US strategists have their own vision of how and where the alliance will expand. If NATO cannot acquire new members it has one less reason to justify its existence. Russia, who is trying to regain the respect it once had, sees such developments as alarming and threatening. For majority of the Russians – political and military confrontation in Ukraine have now become a matter of national pride and importance. The unintended consequences of Western sanctions have resulted in Mr. Putin’s popularity surge.

May 11, 2014 9:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaulBradley wrote:

BraveNewWrld:

Thanks for the link – - I thought it was entertaining. Essentially, it tried to convey the same message that I tried to convey to you – i.e. the POSSIBILITY of who COULD or not be right. The KEY word is the POSSIBILITY. And, since we are all getting all kinds of ‘versions of news’ there is ALWAYS some POSSIBILITY of ‘this’ or ‘that’ being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ or ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or whatever. The point is that NO WAY one can state categorically THIS IS THE ‘RIGHT’ or THIS IS ‘WRONG’. If it would be so simple, we wouldn’t need any legal system Our Supreme Court’s OFTEN split vote on a decision just enforces what I am trying to tell you. The system leans on what ‘majority’ believes .

Here is a problem with that – - according to epistemology, person’s belief is equal to knowledge. Hence, knowledge based on belief is, therefore, ‘sold’ quite often as a fact with total disregard to the obvious: knowledge is NOT necessarily same as fact. Basically, this ‘confusion’ allows to build foundation upon which propaganda was/is formed.

May 11, 2014 9:36pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

As far as I can see from the pictures of the article, the average citizens of the Eastern Ukraine don’t wish to be ruled by Kiev. I think self determination is one of the most basic human rights and we should all respect that. It’s unfortunate that the western countries are all blaming Russia for the recent troubles, while not realizing that the local people in fact want to self govern.

May 11, 2014 9:54pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
WiktorProts wrote:

In its unannounced war against Ukraine, Russia relies on covert operations which fall squarely within the definition of “international terrorism” under 18 U.S.C. § 2331.
Specifically, armed operatives of Russia, acting under disguise, attempt to influence the policy of Ukrainian government by intimidation or coercion. They also try to affect the conduct of a government by assassinations and kidnapping, taking by force government buildings, police posts and military bases of Ukraine.
This activity is being conducted on large scale and over prolonged time period, despite condemnation by the USA, G-7, NATO, EU and UN.
Please sign the petition urging the White House to officially designate Russia as “State sponsor of terrorism” – http://wh.gov/lwuL9
Such status of country would outlaw business of American companies with Russia. Even considering of the petition by Senate and President of USA creating great inconvenience Russian authorities.

May 12, 2014 6:22am EDT  --  Report as abuse
hallsway wrote:

Illegal? How? On what basis? If a U.S. state holds a referendum that is against federal policy, is that illegal? Should the U.S. send in the national guard to shoot some people.

Those Ukrainians look like terrorists, don’t they? Bring on the tanks!

May 12, 2014 1:12pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
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