Ukraine, separatists battle to control border with Russia

Comments (10)
Reality2Day wrote:

Poroshenko is delusional if he thinks Ukraine will get Crimea back from Russia. Russia annexed it in fear that a pro-US/EU/NATO Ukraine would deny Russia it’s Black Sea port, that is the main reason it was annexed, not protecting Russian speaking people, that was just a pretext. Ukraine does not belong in NATO and should not even be considered for membership, that would just be a blatant provocation towards Russia. The entire situation has been mishandled as US/EU/NATO and Russia play their proxy war of influence in Ukraine. Poor advice and propaganda have led to the current situation. Poroshenko wants to portray strength, but as the border guards reveal, they can’t even reinforce them, and artillery and jets bombing separatist areas will only alienate the people of east Ukraine more. Dialogue was the only way to settle the differences between Kiev and the separatists, but that is no longer viable, unless the foreign seditious agents (US/EU/NATO and Russia) can talk and compromise and exert influence on both sides in Ukraine or this will be another dreadful civil-war.

Jun 09, 2014 1:07pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
carlmartel wrote:

The West Ukraine Army has started using the tactics of Syrian President Assad. They shell cities with heavy artillery because their troops lack the skills to take them from former Russian combat veterans and those trained by those veterans. They were hastily assembled, given uniforms and personal weapons, given about two months of training, and sent east. When photos are posted, I point out their mistakes, and explain what trained troops should do.

The Air Force is doing better because the remnants of the air to ground missile was found in the woods in a rebel camp, so the pilot’s aim was better. The photos I have seen of the Luhansk attack show aircraft flares used to confuse air defense heat seeking missiles. The damages probably came from an RPG fired at the plane that struck the building because RPG rounds don’t have heat seeking capabilities. Contrary to one commenter’s claims, there are no “free fall missiles;” those were flares, but they might have set fire to the building after the RPG hit it.

The border is porous because neither Ukraine nor Russia have enough border guards for the entire length. There is a natural reluctance to confront large groups at night who have better arms than border guards. There are also more smuggling routes than guards who were trained to check papers and not fight battles against well armed former combat veterans. Air strikes “are not backed up by a coordinated ground presence” because the army lacks the training. It also lacks experience, but it is difficult and dangerous to gain experience without prior training.

Jun 09, 2014 1:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
DavidLogan wrote:

Recent history has taught us(or should have) that when dealing with insurgents, it’s not as easy as just 2 national leaders coming to an agreement

Jun 09, 2014 1:51pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@carlmartel – if Syria’s Assad is a terrible example to follow, then why does Putin defend Assad from even the mildest condemnation on the world stage, and even arms him with weapons to carry out his gruesome task?

I mean Putin doesn’t care that the U.N. have labeled Assad a war criminal, or that they have established the fact that his forces have systematically raped, tortured, and murdered Syrian children in their thousands. Putin doesn’t care that Assad uses advanced weapons on his own innocent people. Cluster bombs, and scuds, and heavy artillery, and barrel bombs, and much more, are fine in Putin’s eyes for Assad to rain on Syrian civilians in his desperate cling to a decades long dictatorial family rule.

The big question therefore; why the faux concern from Putin when the rightfully elected Ukrainian government attempt to stop balaclava’ed thugs – armed miraculously themselves with top end military hardware like surface to air missiles – after they have seized government buildings and T.V. stations and the like in Ukraine?

I mean, why is Putin willing to supply Assad’s sick forces the means and the defense to turn a country back to the dark ages – including the systematic rape of children en masse – yet is crying like a spoilt child when Ukraine attempts to restore order against armed thugs?

Even for you carlmartel, Putin’s hypocrisy must be truly breathtaking.

Jun 09, 2014 3:42pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
AlkalineState wrote:

Carlmartel complains: “The West Ukraine Army has started using the tactics of Syrian President Assad.”

You mean the tactics of winning? You mean the tactics paid for and planned and supplied almost exclusively by Russia? If these are bad tactics, then why is the Russian government carrying them out in Syria?

Jun 09, 2014 3:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Reality2Day – NATO is only expanding from Russian aggression.

How else can you explain countries like Sweden and Finland suddenly running to NATO after all these years?

Putin seems to be on a one man recruitment drive for NATO. Yet when he’s successful, he bizarrely tries to blame the West.

Is Putin genuinely so stupid that he didn’t realize that countries would cry out to join NATO in the face of Russian aggression?

Or did he hope that propaganda could simply paper over the cracks of his piss poor plan?

Jun 09, 2014 3:51pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

@ JackHerer wrote:

I mean, why is Putin willing to supply Assad’s sick forces the means and the defense to turn a country back to the dark ages

———
To keep his only naval facility in the Mediterranean, Tartus, Syria is home to a small Russian naval base.

Jun 09, 2014 3:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

@ JackHerer wrote: NATO is only expanding from Russian aggression.

Who knows all the machinations behind Ukraine, I definitely don’t, I can only speculate as everyone else on here does. Maybe Putin’s right, the US instigated this by the overthrow of Yanukovich knowing Russia would react raising fear in Europe and NATO, increasing military spending and recruitment of non-member countries. If that was the case Putin played into their hands.

I think both sides are full of guilt when it comes to Ukraine.

Jun 09, 2014 4:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
carlmartel wrote:

@JackHerer and AlkalineState

My concern with Assad’s tactics is that he is blowing up Syria, his country, and, therefore, at some point, he must rebuild his country with his, or someone else’s, money. The same could be said for President Poroshenko and his regaining of East Ukraine. I have also stated repeatedly that each nation’s economy pays for its military, and it develops and pays for the technological tools of its military.

Ukraine is already an economic basket case. Now, it is blowing up its capacity to rebuild itself and repay its debts; it will create new debts with purchases of arms and munitions; and it will use those new weapons to destroy more of its ability to rebuild and repay its debts. I spent 34 years in the US Army, and I’m approaching the completion of my 15th year in business, so I understand war and its economics. The EU has presented $17 billion, and the US has guaranteed $1 billion of that sum. I have no doubt that the US and EU will impoverish themselves with more of Ukraine’s debts because I have faith in the stupidity of current US and EU leaders. I am not against the US and the EU, but I oppose stupidity because it is harmful to the US and EU that roughly includes NATO.

Just as I want to let Russia, China, and four central Asian nations have the debacle in Afghanistan that they volunteered to take, I hope Russia sticks itself with the economic basket case of Ukraine. As a professional soldier, Ukraine is a military trap, not an opportunity. Look at a map, and see that Russia has it virtually surrounded.

Economically, we had -1.0% GDP growth in 2014′s first quarter, and April had a 9.2% drop in housing starts. The US will be in recession if it has a second quarter of negative growth. The EU had negative growth in the first quarter and has $55 billion in public loans to Ukraine and $250 billion in private bank loans to Ukraine’s banks, so a repayment crisis will cause financial crises throughout the EU or NATO countries that will hit the US as the second biggest trade partner of the EU. Meanwhile, Russia has $493 billion in foreign currency reserves, and its ally, China, has $3,726 billion, so they will weather any financial crisis that hits the EU and US.

Further, our sanctions on Russia has caused Russia and China to refine Russian oil and use shorter shipping distances to send these refined oil products to Africa, India, southeast Asia, and the Far East to undercut greatly US refined oil product prices and take $100 billion per year permanently from the US and give it to Russia with refining fees to China. We are permanently losing $100 billion per year to Russia, and Ukraine is not worth that much.

I hope that this gives you some insights into my reasons for wanting to reduce our exposure to the Ukraine crisis, but we will suffer some losses for our positions whatever we do from this point. I am first, foremost, and always an American. I am not the citizen of some small country in crisis that we should avoid.

Jun 09, 2014 5:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
gkaz wrote:

Its all about money, Ukraine was guaranteed an IMF loan of $17 or $18 billion dollars IF they were to join the EU. When they failed to after the over throw of their Russian backed president, the IMF (whose main backer is the U.S.) threatened to cancel the loan. With their current situation their economy has gone from a complete mess to a literal sh*tstorm. If the Ukrainian people thought their government was corrupt wait until they get to know the IMF. They will be in debt for a century or more and none of the people will see any of this money.

Jun 11, 2014 4:52pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
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