Ukraine vows firm response after rebels shoot down military plane

Comments (63)

What the hell are Ukraine commanders thinking by putting that many troops on plane and flying it into an airport right in the middle of an unsecured hostile conflict zone? Taking down the plane must have been like shooting fish in a barrel. Ukraine forces know they are fighting Russian troops posing as local insurgents and that they are armed with advanced weaponry. Nato needs to send in military advisors and help the Ukraine forces get their act together.

Jun 14, 2014 2:14am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Nagant wrote:

@nativearizonan wrote:
“Ukraine forces know they are fighting Russian troops posing as local insurgents and that they are armed with advanced weaponry”
Wrong. Lugansk self-defense forces are just that: locals who took up arms to protect their homes from the Right Sector Nazis. All their weaponry, including MANPADs, was taken from Ukrainian army by force or bribe.
________________

“Nato needs to send in military advisors and help the Ukraine forces get their act together.”
That would be Putin’s dream come true, he’ll get the pretext he needs to get Russian forces involved. They would overrun Ukraine in a matter of days, if not hours.

Jun 14, 2014 2:32am EDT  --  Report as abuse
lub wrote:

@nativearizonan
Why do you think the insurgents are not locals? Would you not take up arms if they bombed your native Arizona?

On Thursday the Ukrainian army used incendiary bombs that are strictly prohibited by the UN. As the evacuation corridors for women and children are negotiated, the Ukraine army went on raining white phosphorus on the city of Slavyansk setting ablaze the whole village of Semyonovka, located in the suburbs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KYuQtlMVRc

Jun 14, 2014 2:51am EDT  --  Report as abuse

You are either with us or you are a terrorist!

Jun 14, 2014 3:29am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Valeriann wrote:

Those are not Ukraine rebels, they are Russian troops!

Jun 14, 2014 4:00am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Ewiak wrote:

This conflict did not arise by chance. Where are we heading? The Bible says: “At the appointed time [the king of the north] will return back [the return of Russia in this context means crisis, which will eclipse the Great Depression. Not only the eurozone will break up, but also the European Union and NATO. Then many countries of the former Eastern block will return to Russia's zone of influence]. And [he] will enter into the south [many indicate on Georgia], but it will not be as the former [2008 - Georgia] or as the latter [2014 - Ukraine. Here also a success, and again no military reaction from the West].” (Daniel 11:29)

But later, the third time will be U.S. intervention and global nuclear war. (Daniel 11:30; Revelation 6:4) As Jesus foretold, it will be “the beginning of birth pains”. (Matthew 24:7, 8)

Jun 14, 2014 5:09am EDT  --  Report as abuse

Nagant, Chyron and Lub, you really should be using independent news sources instead of the fabricated garbage from ITAR-TASS.

Jun 14, 2014 5:40am EDT  --  Report as abuse
lub wrote:

“MacMan” is a typical product of dumbifing mainstream media effect on western population. Capable of making his own primitive observations such as “Putin is old enough..” or “Russia is basically Saudi Arabia..” he repeats the known propaganda points such as Putin being the “biggest” threat to peace in Europe. MacMan also offers a xenophobic stereotype about Germans, but not to denounce it. The Nazi Germany expansionism strikes a positive note with him as he sees a parallel with the American foreign policy. It should be safe to assume that MacMan is an American, republican voter, redneck..

Jun 14, 2014 6:01am EDT  --  Report as abuse
kommy wrote:

today another bomber Su-24 was shut down, pilot taken prisoner over Gorlovka.

Jun 14, 2014 6:57am EDT  --  Report as abuse

Sounds like murder, not a bona fide military operation. Violence begets violence; the situation is rapidly deteriorating in Eastern Ukraine.

Slavs killing Slavs, simply to re-establish political borders, is a clear indication that, even in the 21st century, the veneer of civilization is exceedingly thin.

Jun 14, 2014 7:21am EDT  --  Report as abuse
EvgenyT wrote:

Russian army need 5 hours to take south east of ukraine and 48 hours to take all ukraine.
but russians dont wanna to war with ukrine because they understand what in this case all population will be against russian forces.
they want just one thing what ukrainian to clear they self and deoccupy theirself -by theirself.

Jun 14, 2014 7:57am EDT  --  Report as abuse
AVPx wrote:

I am proud how the people of Novorussia are defending themselves. Good work guys, when the Nazi’s run out of planes and send in paper ones; shoot those down too please.

Jun 14, 2014 9:15am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Bugzy wrote:

Ukraine needs to talk to the people and find a way to offer a fair government. Russia doesn’t like the idea of USA opening a listening post behind its border too so Ukraine needs to make hard choices and stop trying to please anybody.

Jun 14, 2014 9:24am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Rhino1 wrote:

What the hell is wrong with all of you?

49 people lost their lives yesterday alone. Frankly, right now I don’t really care which country they belong to. They had fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, wives, sons and daughters, who are crying their eyes out today.

Then you read all that crap about nazis and God knows what else???

Guys, why is Russia annexing parts of the Ukraine? After 70 years of peace and clear ideas about borders, all of a sudden it’s all wrong again.

I can not remember the Ukraine getting involved in any way in Russia’s business. Why can’t Russia just mind its own business???

What is someone writing there?: If the Nato helps the Ukraine avoid a civil war, Putin will be happy to overrun them all. What the f…..? None of his business. Why don’t you make sure girls bands expressing their own opinion in a rather innocent way don’t get sent to Siberia, instead of messing with independent and free countries, Mr. Putin???

Every single one up there, grow up, wipe the sand off your gum boots and go home. Mommy has called. And don’t forget to wash your hands.

Putin go home, and ideally retire and let a HUMAN BEING take over the running of Russia. Even the Russians themselves will thank you for it.

Jun 14, 2014 9:25am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Vbaykov wrote:

My God, fulfill the President of Ukraine on the termination of the massacre! Tomorrow the end of the first week of his reign!

Jun 14, 2014 9:30am EDT  --  Report as abuse
adamrussell wrote:

Remember that Nazis didnt start with invasions; they started with hostility against immigrants.

Jun 14, 2014 10:06am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

@Nagant
@chyron
@lub

@smokeymtnblues wrote:

Nagant, Chyron and Lub, you really should be using independent news sources instead of the fabricated garbage from ITAR-TASS.

——–
I agree with smokeymtnblues, you should get news from other sources than RT and ITAR-TASS. You should read news from websites that are from other countries in the world, ones you see as telling the truth (for you that’s pro-Russia), ones you call liars (pro-US/EU) and other websites that are more or less neutral (India, China, Brazil, etc.) By reading news with opposing biases and analyzing and dissecting the stories you may get a better grasp of the situation.

Here is a link to site that lists the latest Ukraine headlines from websites across the world (Russia, US, India, Pakistan, China, Lebanon and many, many more countries. I hope you decide to use it, instead of relying on just one-sided biased news (propaganda).

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/Ukraine+Crisis

Jun 14, 2014 10:11am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

P.S. to previous quote. You can find news website links on numerous topics on this site by category, such hot topics, current affairs, world news, business, etc.

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/

Jun 14, 2014 10:26am EDT  --  Report as abuse
chyron wrote:

@Reality2Day
I read several sources but value most accounts of people who are there – and of ‘em militia is one exaggerating but not lying.
Don’t forget – China etc has no eyes on the ground, they’re using already ‘recycled’ data.

Jun 14, 2014 10:52am EDT  --  Report as abuse
apollo1981 wrote:

Yes, all these pro-Russian commentators should definitely consider other news sources. How do you buy automatically that EVERYONE in Ukraine who opposes you is a nazi? This is pure propaganda.

Jun 14, 2014 10:56am EDT  --  Report as abuse
chyron wrote:

addendum
@Reality2Day
as for ITAR-TASS..due to reading militia and svidomy blogs i knew news well in advance of ‘em appearing on TASS.

Jun 14, 2014 11:08am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Fred_1945 wrote:

Yes, the loss of so many human lives is appaling. However, those 49 soldiers did not fly to Luhansk on an excursion or humanitarian mission. It was part of a war by the Kiev government against Russian-speaking people in the east of Ukraine. The were flying to kill the “separatists”, and the “separatists” killed them before that. “Shoot or be shot” – the rule of war. Otherwise, it would be the same distorted logic: to kill anti-Russians is a crime, to kill pro-Russians is anti-terrorist operation.

Jun 14, 2014 11:11am EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@reality2day

I wonder why would you direct your comment towards those 3 rather than smokymtnblues et al?
My guess is that those you pointed out do have plenty of access to all news sources, like I do. And they most likely read all sided of the coverage.
The things and issues they point out are clearly those which are not covered by the mainstream press. Quite obviuosly, the Russian news outlets that you and smokymtnblues suggested they are using are only marginally, if at all, represented in the mainstream. As one US top level official once stated, “we control the public opinion”. And his assessment is certainly supported by the “mainstream” reader’s attitudes.
Writing comments that amplify the mainstream views already delivered by the mighty media machine seems rather useless and, frankly, quite silly. Getting across views and news that are marginally delivered, or not delivered at all by the mainstream is, on the other hand, quite useful. Especially if these are the news that question the mainstream “controlling public opinion”.

As for what to be called propaganda – read the book. Propaganda, E. Bernais (1928). Quite illuminating. Reads very modern. And very short. Enjoy.

Jun 14, 2014 11:16am EDT  --  Report as abuse
libertadormg wrote:

Ethnic and nationalistic clashes breaking out around the world. Tea Party rhetoric has the potential for creating deep divisions and strife to happen in the US. Warning: Liberals own guns too and we know how to use them.

Jun 14, 2014 11:30am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Fred_1945 wrote:

@Reality2Day
Is it Russian propaganda that Ukrainian armed forces shell and bomb East Ukrainian vilages and towns? I watched CNN and Euronews showing the results of it. I watched Western correspondents speaking to the East Ukraine peaceful citizens who said: If Russia does not help us they would kill us. And in many cases it is not even the Ukrainian regular army that attacks the towns. It is National guard formed with the volunteers for pay, i.e. mercenaries.

Jun 14, 2014 11:33am EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaulBradley wrote:

I would like to see all of the “pro-Russian” propaganda-commentators here to try posting ‘ANTI-RUSSIAN’ and/or ‘ANTI-PUTIN’ propaganda on Russian media . . . .

Jun 14, 2014 11:36am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Nagant wrote:

@Reality2Day
“you should get news from other sources than RT and ITAR-TASS”
Reuters & CNN are good enough?

@apollo1981
“How do you buy automatically that EVERYONE in Ukraine who opposes you is a nazi?”
Simple. The ones who glorify Nazi collaborators and Waffen SS members are Nazis, and thus bad guys. And anyone who opposes them are good guys. If you are not aware of the facts, today’s Ukraine’s heroes are SS Division Galizien ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_%22Galizien%22 ) and Stepan Bandera.

Jun 14, 2014 11:41am EDT  --  Report as abuse
xcanada2 wrote:

@Rhino1, and others:

Of course these Ukraine problems have a history, not only the longer one concerning Russia and Ukraine, but the planning that went on before the putch in Kiev.

Diana Johnstone has a good analysis of the run up to the putch, putting together material from The Economist, Forbes, The Times of London, and other sources:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/06/washingtons-iron-curtain-in-ukraine/

We have seen the intense involvement of the US: Nuland, McCain, Kerry, Biden, Biden’s son, Brennan, and entourages, Presidents and Prime Minster visits with Obama. The above article shows many other US characters are involved, gives an explanation of how this all got going, and what it is about. Rational people may disagree, but the story that Russia started it all, or even has a large involvement, doesn’t hold much water in the face of the huge US presence.

Rhino1, you are right of course, 49 guys killed in one shot is terrible, maybe even up to the level of the burning up and beating to death people in the Odessa Massacre. But, to stop this ongoing conflagration, the public probably needs to realistically understand what is behind it.

To me, real evidence points to neocons (once again) in the US government, and whomever they are in service to. It is these people and whomever is running them, who are the evil behind the scenes.

Blaming it on Putin, just means that you have bought the CoolAid of the US Administration and its driving forces.

Jun 14, 2014 11:50am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Dron wrote:

Just shows once again how incompetent the Ukrainian military are, they knew very well that rebels have surrounded the airport and have portable anti-air missiles. Moreover, the rebels had warned 3 days ago they will shoot down any military aircraft flying in or out of Lugansk airport controlled by Ukrainian government forces.

Jun 14, 2014 12:16pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
jrpardinas wrote:

Negotiations and greater autonomy are the solutions in East Ukraine.

Military onslaughts financed by Washington and Brussels are not.

Jun 14, 2014 12:23pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@PaulBradley

Being logical, you would probably have to require “pro-Western”, or “pro-Obama” comments, right? I have sure seen plenty of those on RT, although in general their comment board is overwhelmed by some total crap, which probably shows that they serve rather marginal audience now.

Of course, you might not be willing to use logical thinking or confront uncomfortable facts. That’s OK. This is rather common among humans here. However, if you do – go ahead, perform an experiment! Register on RT and post anti-putin comment of a similar type to the anti-West comments that people post here.

And then, please, report on this board what is the result of your study :).

Jun 14, 2014 12:24pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

All this time we worried about radicals distributing anti-aircraft weaponry and missiles when we should have been worrying about the Russians doing it.

Jun 14, 2014 12:40pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
carlmartel wrote:

On April 16, 2014, Reuters published a story about the surrender of a unit of the 25th Airborne Armored Brigade at Slaviansk. That unit would have had air defense missiles as part of its TO&E. Photos with that article show part of the same unit at Kramatorsk splitting with part of the unit joining the East Ukraine rebels and part remaining loyal to West Ukraine. The loyalists included the artillery that would have included the air defense missiles. The number of missiles that were surrendered would have been 12 to 24, and 2 are known to have been used at Slaviansk, leaving 10 to 22 missiles. If anyone uses Google with the Maps option, they will find that Luhansk is about 100 miles from Slaviansk, but the rebels have had nearly 2 months to redistribute the missiles. No country with a national airline, such as Aeroflot, would want rebels, whose ultimate goals are not known, to have MANPADs, MAN Portable Air Defense missiles. The missiles were surrendered to East Ukraine rebels by West Ukraine troops in April. This is the first instance of use outside of Slaviansk, but it may not be the last because there are 9 to 21 missiles that remain in the hands of East Ukraine rebels.

To learn the Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) of Ukraine’s Army, go to Google and type “TO&E, Ukraine Army.” Choose Wikipedia’s entry, and go to the 25th Armored Brigade. The brigade included an air defense artillery battalion that would have been split into sections to protect each unit going near the Russian border because Russia has an airforce and helicopter gunships. The photos in the April 16 Reuters article prove that most of the artillery remained loyal to East Ukraine, but the unit that surrendered would have had 12 to 24 air defense missiles of which 3 are known to have been used. On April 17, President Turchynov of West Ukraine disbanded the 25th Brigade because part of the unit defected to the East Ukraine rebels. We may see more aircraft shot down with missiles until the (estimated) 24 missiles have been used.

Jun 14, 2014 12:47pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
PaulBradley wrote:

@BraveNewWrld

As you probably noticed, I have NOT published here or anywhere “pro-Western”, “pro-Obama”, “pro-Putin”, “pro-Russia”, “anti-Russia”, “anti-Putin”, “anti-Obama”, “anti-Western”, etc., for a simple reason – - i.e. I am not adequately informed in ref. to the ‘Ukrainian situation’ since Putin’s unlimited power over what’s published in HIS media puts my ‘logical’ mind in to a state of scepticism . . .

However, YOU seem to be one of the ‘self-chosen’ omniscient . . .

Jun 14, 2014 12:52pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Mandingo wrote:

Advanced weaponry like SAM’s (Surface to Air Missiles) from Russia are already on the ground and have already been used by the Russians in Ukraine to bring down choppers etc. Why would the Ukrainians gamble like that and have so many on board an exposed transport plane?

The Russians have now also brought in tanks and other sophisticated weapons for their irregular troops in Ukraine.

Putin blows hard about Russians speakers in Ukraine but has no problem murdering Russian citizens in Chechnya, Ingushetia and anywhere else. Or doing cross border raids killing citizens of Georgia etc.

Jun 14, 2014 1:07pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Californian16 wrote:

Seems like the Ukrainian Military has the same problem as the Iraqi Military – they don’t know how to defeat terrorists ! Solution? Yes ! Help from the United States !! We have a modern, disciplined Military – good at winning wars!!!

Jun 14, 2014 1:15pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Californian16 wrote:

Seems like the Ukrainian Military has the same problem as the Iraqi Military – they don’t know how to defeat terrorists ! Solution? Yes ! Help from the United States !! We have a modern, disciplined Military – good at winning wars!!!

Jun 14, 2014 1:15pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Californian16 wrote:

Seems like the Ukrainian Military has the same problem as the Iraqi Military – they don’t know how to defeat terrorists ! Solution? Yes ! Help from the United States !! We have a modern, disciplined Military – good at winning wars!!!

Jun 14, 2014 1:15pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Californian16 wrote:

Seems like the Ukrainian Military has the same problem as the Iraqi Military – they don’t know how to defeat terrorists ! Solution? Yes ! Help from the United States !! We have a modern, disciplined Military – good at winning wars!!!

Jun 14, 2014 1:15pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
MacMan wrote:

@Lub,:

Did you make a whole kopek for your post declaring me to be “typical product of dumbifing mainstream media” and “an American, republican voter, redneck.”

I am none of the above. I do, however, have rather intimate knowledge of and experience in the “borderlands,” so I am very aware of what Russian expansionism means for its neighbors, and I am very aware of what many Germans think about the Russians.

V. Putin is just like G.W. Bush, in that he usis nationalism and religion to rile up the stupid. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have the political structures and established civil rules found in America or parts of Europe, to recover.

Instead, Russia is back to being an Orwellian dictatorship, looking outside its borders to mask internal problems. Another similarity to Saudi Arabia, in addition to the almost entirely commodities-based economy.

Jun 14, 2014 2:23pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
MacMan wrote:

@Lub,:

Did you make a whole kopek for your post declaring me to be “typical product of dumbifing mainstream media” and “an American, republican voter, redneck.”

I am none of the above. I do, however, have rather intimate knowledge of and experience in the “borderlands,” so I am very aware of what Russian expansionism means for its neighbors, and I am very aware of what many Germans think about the Russians.

V. Putin is just like G.W. Bush, in that he usis nationalism and religion to rile up the stupid. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have the political structures and established civil rules found in America or parts of Europe, to recover.

Instead, Russia is back to being an Orwellian dictatorship, looking outside its borders to mask internal problems. Another similarity to Saudi Arabia, in addition to the almost entirely commodities-based economy.

Jun 14, 2014 2:23pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
eturugo wrote:

I do not see why U.S, Germany and France are accusing Russia for supply of weapons to the Separatists while they are arming Ukraine. Ukraine should halt all military attacks and hold peace talks with the Separatists.

Jun 14, 2014 3:12pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Nagant wrote:

MacMan wrote:

@Lub,:

Did you make a whole kopek for your post declaring me to be “typical product of dumbifing mainstream media” and “an American, republican voter, redneck.”
____________________

MacMan,
Looks like Lub is wrong here, but he should be excused for that, he’s probably a Russian with some knowledge of English and very vague ideas about American political spectrum. I can see that, because I am “American, republican voter” (I decided to keep the original spelling), though not nearly a redneck. As for “typical product of dumbifing mainstream media”, he might be not that far off. Did you ever try to get past “Russians are bad guys by default” idea, and evaluate the facts as they are? Oh, yes, for that, you have to look at the facts from both sides, not just Western media outlets regurgitating the bovine fecal matter served to them by official Kiev.

Jun 14, 2014 3:20pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
MacMan wrote:

@eturugo:

Whatever the history, Ukraine is a sovereign country with established, internationally recognized borders.

Perhaps you should also suggest to V. Putin that Russia should also “halt all military attacks and hold peace talks” with all of the various separatists trying to split away from Russia?

Does this make sense?

Jun 14, 2014 3:31pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

Let us not hear any more from Hitler, I mean Putin about Chechyn terrorism. The most active terrorist in the world is Putin.

Jun 14, 2014 4:05pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

@ BraveNewWrld wrote: I wonder why would you direct your comment towards those 3

Because they throw the word Nazi or fascist around to describe everyone that isn’t pro-separatist or pro-Russian. It’s like they only get news from biased sources (for) or they are propagators of bias.

——–
@ Nagant wrote: Reuters & CNN are good enough?

No! And I don’t go to CNN. I check The Guardian, Reuters, Al Jazeera, Times of India, China Daily, RT, TASS, Business Insider, Global Research, etc.. All report biased versions of events on all stories. By seeing more than one biased side, I hope it may give me at least a better perspective of the situation.

Jun 14, 2014 4:54pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Reality2Day wrote:

@ Fred_1945 wrote:

Is it Russian propaganda that Ukrainian armed forces shell and bomb East Ukrainian vilages and towns?

——–
I don’t doubt or deny that east Ukrainian towns are being bombed by Kiev. The Kiev government is doing just like Assad in Syria, bombing areas where there are innocent civilians, a crime. Whether it is the Army and/or National Guard (alleged Right Sector, Nazis (Nagant’s term)) I don’t know.

Pro-separatists say these fascists threaten their lives, just as Kiev says Russian mercenaries threaten their unity.

It’s a flip of the coin as who to believe, heads or tails. I think it’s best if it stands on it’s edge, then you see both sides, not mesmerized by the you see and blinded to the side you can’t see. I try to remain unbiased, but we all have some to a degree, it’s a matter of whether it’s slight or significant.

Jun 14, 2014 5:04pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
From_Mars wrote:

I’d like to see NATO/EU call on Kiev and Ukrainian military to immediately refrain from further indiscriminate artillery (or air attacks) on residential and populated areas in the war zone.

Equally so, Kremlin and Russian Foreign ministry should call on rogue Russian elements to stop assisting the active militant activities and call on Russian-speaking extremist militants in East Ukraine to agree to Truce and enter into political dialogue with new Ukrainian leadership.

C’mon folks, let’s get more civil, modern and humane about this totally unnecessary conflict and push hard for 21st century solutions appropriate reforms and compromise, before it enters into more catastrophic Syrian-like self-destruction mode!

One can only hope that the current Ukrainian leadership does not want to follow the likeness of Assad regime, and Russian-speaking Ukrainian rebels the likeness of ISIS!

Cease fire people, please… Cool jets now and be 21st century players! Good luck, chill and respects to all humans on planet Earth.

Jun 14, 2014 6:43pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Maserati123 wrote:
Jun 14, 2014 7:09pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Maserati123 wrote:

It is a shame putin is such an ASS.

Jun 14, 2014 7:10pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
REnninga wrote:

Vladimir Putin is guilty of mass murder in Ukraine. It’s time for the General Assembly of the United Nations to forward ‘Crimes Against Humanity’ charges to the World Court in the Hague.

Without some demonstration of seriousness from the world, Putin will not stop until he has reclaimed the territories of the former Soviet Union, under the Russian flag. Putin has repeatedly lied to the rest of the world over the past 4-months. And he is already calling the territories that he is presently destabilizing, “New Russia.”

Putin is a former high-ranking KGB officer, trained cold-blooded killer, and now oligarch and dictator. He has stated that the dissolution of the Soviet Union is the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century.

Good grief, what demonstration does the world need in order to connect the dots of Putin’s intentions, for Putin himself to give a PowerPoint slide show?

Jun 14, 2014 7:33pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
gentalman wrote:

I wonder how come EU or world bank does not give finance to Eukraine to pay their outstanding bills for gas!None is budging only Russia is giving latitude.It seems Petro Poro has aggravated the situation by continueing sending millitary force despite agreement.
It seems Petro Poro.is buying time to bring around rebels.He is mistaking or he wants EU to bring in any how.But it seems it is not going to be.

Jun 14, 2014 8:05pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
kenradke12 wrote:

Go home seperatists, pack up and go home..Ukraine is Ukraine and that will not change. The only thing that will change is the seperatists pack thier bags and go to Russia.Then there will be peace. Putin is making a gravew mistake and is using the threat of cutting of the gas as a bargaining chip…Putin is a LOSER!!

Jun 14, 2014 8:53pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@PaulBradley
You seem to be totally confused. Speaking of logic, my comment was about your remark,

I would like to see all of the “pro-Russian” propaganda-commentators here to try posting ‘ANTI-RUSSIAN’ and/or ‘ANTI-PUTIN’ propaganda on Russian media . . . .

Which I read as implying that posting something mirror-symmetric to the “pro-Russian propaganda” that you saw hereon Russian media would be not possible. That was the intent of your comment, right?

So I noted two things. First, is that one’s ability to post “pro-Russian propaganda” here equals an ability to post “pro-West”, or “pro-US” propaganda on Russian media, and not posting “anti-Russian” or “anti-Putin” propaganda there. Although I have seen plenty of both on RT, wherefrom I concluded that your implication is misguided. Hence, the second thing. When you try to propagate ideas/views whose factual correctness can be easily checked – such as by Googling, or posting a pro-US or even anti-Putin comment on RT, please do so. Because otherwise you propagate wrong, factually incorrect ideas and views for no reason other than your biased opinion.

Jun 15, 2014 8:30am EDT  --  Report as abuse
CanRus wrote:

MacMan wrote:
“The problem is that Russia doesn’t have the political structures and established civil rules found in [Western countries], to recover. Instead, Russia is back to being an Orwellian dictatorship, looking outside its borders to mask internal problems.”
Thanks for mentioning that, as it’s a quite apt comparison. And as you also touched upon, Bush Jr. is gone. I’m sure many American’s are relieved. I sure am, and I’m not even American! The main difference with Putin is, due to Russia’s totally corrupt and broken political system, Putin has the possibilty of getting himself “elected” as President (dictator) for life. It’s also obvious he intends to do exactly that, along with increasing his personal power at any cost (even if it means ruining Russia), including invading neighbouring countries. That’s where the comparisons to Hitler, even if somewhat exaggerated, aren’t so far off the mark. No matter what Putin’s fans say, whether they’re paid propaganda operatives or just “Russian mass media” (Kremlin-controlled propaganda) brainwashed sheep, Putin is currently the World’s #1 threat to peace and stability. Just as Bush Jr. was during his tour as US President. Only Putin has been there for longer and shows no signs of going away. He’s only going to continue getting worst, for both the World and the citizens of Russia.

On another note, I’m really sick of the “Ukrainians are Nazis” propaganda being pushed by the Putin fanclub (how ANYONE sane and intelligent can be pro-Putin escapes me, just as it’s unimaginable to me for anyone sane and intelligent to have been pro Bush Jr.). Putin is a murderous monster, and a disaster for Russia. I’ll refrain from naming names, but it’s obvious who they are… same “Ukrainian Nazis” & “fascist coup government” non-stop bleating in every article about Ukraine. Cut the “Everyone, let’s hate Ukrainians” campaign. It’s disgusting.

But getting back to the “Ukrainian Nazis” script… That may work on Russians whose only source of information is Kremlin-controlled TV and newspapers (a large number of people for sure, sadly). But I just don’t get how the “people” trying to shove this urban legend down anyone’s throat can possible believe they’ll convince anyone else. Yes of course, everybody opposed to the Kremlin-backed terrorists in Ukraine are Nazis, and the Ukrainian government is a facist coup. If this is so common in Ukraine, it’s strange I never met a single one any of the times I was there… only nice normal people (especially in Odessa)… I must have been incredibly “lucky”.

The US government obviously doesn’t have their hands clean in this story, as usual. They did a lot of meddling, though less severely in this case than they’ve done in many other places. I’m sure they actively supported the overthrow of Yakunovich. But trying to equate that with the heavily armed terrorists and mercenaries Putin sent into Eastern Ukraine is dishonest at best. Because that’s what these people are. Sure, some local crackpots jumped on the occasion to feed their own little power trip. They’re Putin’s clueless and mindless puppets, who he’s going to throw to the wolves as soon as he doesn’t need them anymore… or they become a liability. The infighting has begun… no surprizes there… they all want to become a local warlord. But none of that would have happened if Putin hadn’t promised them troops and weapons. People who shoot at police without provocation, take over government buildings and police stations with assault rifles and grenades, kidnap people they don’t like, and hold entire towns hostage – are terrorists… no matter what Putin’s fanclub says. And even though the members of that fanclub would like to gloss over the facts, that IS how this whole murderous mess in Eastern Ukraine got started… Kremlin-backed terrorists. Kiev started their (clumsy, I admit) anti-terrorist operation AFTER the terrorist attacks began. Would Putin tolerate such behavior within Russia? I dare any of his fans to try it and report back… it’s unlikely they’ll live to tell about it.

“Perhaps you should also suggest to V. Putin that Russia should also ‘halt all military attacks and hold peace talks’ with all of the various separatists trying to split away from Russia?”
Lol! Yeah, like that will ever happen. :) Not as long as Putin is alive, I’m afraid. Naw… he buys traitors like Ramzan Kadyrov to do his dirty work for him, to keep the local malcontents under control. Imprisonment, murder, torture and threat of destruction are Putin’s standard tools for dealing with separatists within Russia.

From_Mars wrote:
“I’d like to see NATO/EU call on Kiev and Ukrainian military to immediately refrain from further indiscriminate artillery (or air attacks) on residential and populated areas in the war zone.
Equally so, Kremlin and Russian Foreign ministry should call on rogue Russian elements to stop assisting the active militant activities and call on Russian-speaking extremist militants in East Ukraine to agree to Truce and enter into political dialogue with new Ukrainian leadership.”
Mostly agree with your intelligent comment. The only point I differ with you is the “rogue Russian elements”. Although I’m sure there are some in Eastern Ukraine, I’m also convinced most of the “freedom fighters” supporting the local crackpots are directly controlled, armed and financed by the Kremlin. Just like the “Little Green Men” in Crimea. Putin just hasn’t admitted it yet.

REnninga wrote:
“Vladimir Putin is guilty of mass murder in Ukraine…
Without some demonstration of seriousness from the world, Putin will not stop… Putin has repeatedly lied to the rest of the world over the past 4-months. And he is already calling the territories that he is presently destabilizing, “New Russia.”
Putin is a former high-ranking KGB officer, trained cold-blooded killer, and now oligarch and dictator…
Good grief, what demonstration does the world need in order to connect the dots of Putin’s intentions, for Putin himself to give a PowerPoint slide show?”
I would laugh about your last comment if it wasn’t so sad that it makes me want to cry. Yeah, that’s probably what it would take. Or at least a public announcement from Putin along the lines of “I’m going to invade all the countries I want and you can’t stop me!”. The pathetically sad truth is that Western leaders are apathetic. They don’t want to risk starting WWIII, and most of all they don’t want to risk upsetting their corporate boss buddies (who are actually their bosses too, especially in the US) who only care about profits and their personal fortunes. War is bad for business… well most businesses, anyway. Would cause a global recession. So until the situation turns into a disaster nobody can ignore anymore, they’ll continue to do as little as possible hoping the problem (Putin) will just go away. Which won’t happen, of course. The World’s current only real hope for peace is that Putin’s megalomania and paranoia causes the Russian economy to implode, resulting in a Maidan-style revolution in Russia. Unlikely in the near future. And for various reasons, I’d prefer that didn’t happen. Russians are mostly decent people… just misguided by a crooked abusive government. Western leaders need to grow some balls (not a stab at Ms. Merkel… she’s actually one of the most “ballsy” of the bunch) and start acting like leaders… or step down and let some real leaders run the show.

Jun 15, 2014 8:35am EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@CanRus

Read your incoherent rumbling. Lots of words amplifying certain opinion clichés, but no factual information whatsoever. Waste of time.

It is not even clear from your post, whether you suggest that Nazis, neo-Nazis, Nazi apologists and Nazi sympathizers should not be called so.

The issue is absolutely clear here. Anyone marching under the portrait of Adolf Hitler, glorifying him and his henchmen as German heroes and inventing apologies for their heinous Nazi crimes are neo-Nazis, Nazi sympathizers and Nazi apologists, and should be clearly identified and condemned as such.

Similarly, anyone marching under the portrait of Stephane Bandera, glorifying him and his henchmen as Ukrainian heroes and inventing apologies for their heinous Nazi crimes (including massacre of 60-80 thousands of poles in Galicia and Volhynia) are Ukrainian neo-Nazis, Nazi sympathizers and Nazi apologists, and should be clearly identified and condemned as such. What is so difficult to understand here?

As in Germany in 1930-s not all Germans were Nazis, only a small but active fraction were, similarly in Ukraine only a small but active fraction of the populous are neo-Nazis or Nazi sympathizers. And you could just look up photos from the occupied Kiev city hall to see the large portrait of Bandera, the Ukrainian little Hitler. And you could just Google “Bandera monuments” to see that more than 15 monuments to this man have been erected in Western Ukraine in recent yeas.

But even small fraction of the population being active Nazis was enough in Germany to establish the Nazi regime. This has not yet happened in Ukraine, but the situation is dire. The population is poor, desperate, its hopes and aspirations for better life which were high upon the dissolution of the USSR are shattered to pieces. People are poor and humiliated like Germans were in 1930s. Many of the neo-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers now hold important positions of power in the government. The media is churning out nationalist propaganda, alternative and non-nationalist media are banned (incidentally, this is exactly in accordance with Bandera’s directions). People are brainwashed, incapable of rational thinking, and ready to mob justice and mob rule. And the economy is going down the drain.

And immature minds blame it all on Putin. As if having put the blame on somebody would somehow help. But it wont. Even if Putin flies to Mars tonight, nothing would change for the Ukrainian economy or for the Ukrainian people. They have to be saved from themselves by themselves. God save the Ukrainian people. God bless Ukraine.

Jun 15, 2014 10:09am EDT  --  Report as abuse
MacMan wrote:

@BraveNewWrld

Looking at your profile and post, you are basically a human bot: Over 300 posts in rapid succession, all about Ukraine, all defending V. Putin and virtually every post repeats the “Ukrainians are Nazis” mantra.

I would guess that you are sitting in an office somewhere in Yasenevo, part of what seems like an orchestrated campaign of Russian disinformation. An educated guess, since it is unlikely that you are Putin’s typical dumb, nationalistic and religious supporter, as those do not generally speak English,

BTW, CanRus’s post is hardly “incoherent. rambling.”

And while the Ukrainian economy is certainly in dire straights, Russia’s “economy” raises and falls with the commodities markets, which defines it as a Third World economy. If Russia was a normal country with a First World economy, the average Russian would also be much better off.

Jun 15, 2014 1:31pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
MacMan wrote:

@BraveNewWrld

Looking at your profile and post, you are basically a human bot: Over 300 posts in rapid succession, all about Ukraine, all defending V. Putin and virtually every post repeats the “Ukrainians are Nazis” mantra.

I would guess that you are sitting in an office somewhere in Yasenevo, part of what seems like an orchestrated campaign of Russian disinformation. An educated guess, since it is unlikely that you are Putin’s typical dumb, nationalistic and religious supporter, as those do not generally speak English,

BTW, CanRus’s post is hardly “incoherent. rambling.”

And while the Ukrainian economy is certainly in dire straights, Russia’s “economy” raises and falls with the commodities markets, which defines it as a Third World economy. If Russia was a normal country with a First World economy, the average Russian would also be much better off.

Jun 15, 2014 1:31pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

It is surprising that the government of Ukraine hasn’t infiltrated the the insurgency with their own agents. I would think it would be a not be difficult to put spies among the pro-Russian militias thereby giving Ukraine’s forces reliable and timely intelligence. Given time this would allow them to identify and eliminate the insurgent leadership. Being on the outside looking in will never allow them to put down the insurgency or remove the Russian agents leading and instigating the violence.

Jun 15, 2014 2:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

@Nagrant: I suppose those Russian tanks that were actually observed coming across the border from Russia came from Ukraine also? There are photos of Russian soldiers leading the pro-Russian militias. Russian money is being used to buy unemployed Russian speaking Ukrainians to join the insurgency. Putin even admitted Russian agents were present after photographs were made public and the agents identified.

Jun 15, 2014 2:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse

@Nagrant: I suppose those Russian tanks that were actually observed coming across the border from Russia came from Ukraine also? There are photos of Russian soldiers leading the pro-Russian militias. Russian money is being used to buy unemployed Russian speaking Ukrainians to join the insurgency. Putin even admitted Russian agents were present after photographs were made public and the agents identified.

Jun 15, 2014 2:57pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@MacMan

>I would guess that you are sitting in an office somewhere in Yasenevo, part of what seems like an orchestrated campaign of Russian disinformation.

Wow! Your guess is as close to reality as the rest of your assessments. Perhaps, you judge by what you do?

If you’d have a bit of logical thinking left, you perhaps could’ve checked when I posted those “Over 300 posts” – in what you say is “rapid succession”. Which lasted 3 years or something like that? That definition of “rapid succession” of course once again highlights your logic. Or, the absence of thereof. So, perhaps, there is no hope here. You are free to believe whatever you like. There is no Nazis. Or all Russians are fascists as many of your kind write here. Or that I am – how you call it – a bot sitting in office somewhere in Yaseneve.
Or, you might see a doctor :)

Jun 15, 2014 6:35pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
CanRus wrote:

BraveNewWrld wrote:
“Read your incoherent rumbling. Lots of words amplifying certain opinion clichés, but no factual information whatsoever. Waste of time.”
So that’s you counter-argument? Wow! Impressive! Here’s some advice for the future – if you read something you don’t understand, ask for clarification rather than trying to dismiss it as “rumblings” (sic) and “waste of time”. Whether it was intentional or not, you’re setting yourself up to be labelled a troll. After an intro like that, there’s no reason why I should take anything else you have to say seriously.

P.S. I avoid trying to pass off my opinions as facts, contrary to some people.

Jun 17, 2014 6:17am EDT  --  Report as abuse
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