Berlin talks bring Russia and Ukraine closer to resuming ceasefire

Comments (33)
BraveNewWrld wrote:

Mr. Poroshenko – please, just stop it! Stop killing your own people, your own Ukrainian children and women, draining your own blood. Sit and negotiate with whoever you have to. Hold referendums if you need to. Let them go and unite with Russia, if people decide so. Keep them in the united Ukraine, if this would be their choice.

Nothing, I repeat – NOTHING in this world justifies killing a single child. A single woman. If you believe that there are some “noble” goals of yours that do justify these actions – you’re deluded. And a criminal.

Jul 02, 2014 9:52am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@BraveNewWrld – you appear to be getting Syria mixed up with Ukraine.

Assad is the one targeting innocent civilians with barrel bombs, and scuds, and cluster bombs, and other terrible weapons which rip women and children to shreds.

Oddly enough, that’s A-OK with Putin though. Putin will happily defend Assad on a world stage as his forces murder women and children in their thousands. Hell, Putin will even arm Assad for his sick and brutal atrocities.

Save your faux outrage therefore, unless you are willing to condemn Putin for arming and defending the U.N. designated war criminal Assad.

If the Ukrainian government’s actions are criminal as you claim, then why isn’t Putin for far worse?

It’s clearly hypocrisy in the extreme for Kremlin-bots to cheer Putin’s and Assad’s actions regarding Syria, yet cry foul when the Ukrainian government attempts to stop balaclava’ed thugs who mysteriously have access to top end, advanced military hardware.

Jul 02, 2014 10:38am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Rilski wrote:

It seems to me that Putin is trying to stop the fighting and the West insists on it..

Jul 02, 2014 11:04am EDT  --  Report as abuse
Rilski wrote:

@JackHerer
hypocrisy all around. There is no difference between Putin and the West when it comes to who has the right to separate, Kosovo does, the Serbs in Bosnia don’t Chechnya does Luhansk doesn’t and so on… however that does not justify what the Ukrainian president is doing no – he is killing civilians and ethnically cleansing the Russians.

Jul 02, 2014 11:10am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@BraveNewWrld – forgive me for being nosy, but I couldn’t help having a browse through your former comments.

Back last year, when Syria, not Ukraine, was your subject du jour, you constantly deflected and defended Assad’s sick actions as his forces slaughtered innocent women and children.

Obvious question therefore; why zero concern then, with the killing of innocents on a grand, brutal, indiscriminate scale? Yet now, you seem moved to tears with any possible accidental, not deliberate, civilian deaths.

When people say the comments pages of this, and other, Western media sites are awash with paid Kremlin apologists, they clearly have a very valid point.

If not, how else can you explain the extreme hypocrisy shamefully shown by some online-commentators? The exact same hypocrisy Putin himself displays.

Jul 02, 2014 11:31am EDT  --  Report as abuse
mjp1958 wrote:

BraveNewWorld and Rilski are hard at work again today, on behalf of dictator, liar and invader Vladimir Putin and his former Russian Empire.

Jul 02, 2014 11:32am EDT  --  Report as abuse
mjp1958 wrote:

There would be NO BLOODSHED in eastern Ukraine, if it was not for Pussian money being used to feed, arm and support the Russian militants. I hope those militants are ready to die, because death is coming for them, very soon.

Poroshenko is doing an excellent job at tackling a very difficult situation — against the murderous and evil Mr. Putin!

Jul 02, 2014 11:35am EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@Rilski – When exactly did the West raise the concerns for a separate Chechnya? Even as Russian forces were turning Grozny to dust.

Also, since when is ethnic cleansing attempting to stop balaclava’ed thugs, armed with advanced military hardware, from taking over government buildings and tactically important installations?

You clearly need a more up to date dictionary, and you clearly need to move away from the Russian state controlled media spew.

That’s if the former is possible from the confines of a Kremlin propaganda sweatshop.

Jul 02, 2014 11:50am EDT  --  Report as abuse
sabrefencer wrote:

and here i thought all merkel was good for was fits at the united states..after all, with all their supposed spying, the us and not russia ,has looked to undermine what? the quality of their strudel? the enemy of germany is russia, not the USA…

Jul 02, 2014 11:54am EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

warning #178 :)

Jul 02, 2014 12:29pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@JackHerrer:
First, let us conduct a sanity check for you and other Kremlin conspiracy theorists.

Do you count myself – BraveNewWorld – among those “Kremlin-bots” and “paid Kremlin apologists”?

Jul 02, 2014 1:13pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Truthhhhhh wrote:

Rilski

Of cause it’s seems to you. Putin (Russians) is a wolf in a sheep skin..

Jul 02, 2014 1:30pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@BraveNewWrld – as far as I can tell, those who tirelessly and blindly defend Russia’s bullying, aggression, and hypocrisy, fall into one of two camps:

- Paid Kremlin apologists.

- Conspiracy nuts, who now, following their push that the moon landings were faked, or the Twin Towers were brought down by energy beams, have become pliant and gullible morons for Russian propaganda; happily swallowing what the Kremlin wants, because they know how to push the mistrust and paranoia buttons.

If I was to hazard a guess therefore, with your response I’d say you fall into the second category.

Would it be rude to ask a quick few questions to confirm my suspicions?

Do you mistrust people in general? Does anyone who has ever been close to you think you are paranoid? Have you been let down in past by people you thought were friends?

I suspect that, tragically, the answer would be yes to those.

Jul 02, 2014 2:02pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@JackHerrer wrote:
… Ukrainian government attempts to stop balaclava’ed thugs …

Here is another sanity check. Do you really believe in what you write? Has it ever occurred to you that you can check your opinion vs facts?

For example, I just googled up “East Ukraine rebels”. And looked at the images that come up. This is one of few ways to get a really unbiased view, as Google’s nice proprietary algorithm is not under control of “Kremlin”, CIA, KGB, Mossad, or any other governmental security agency. At least I believe so.

And – surprise, surprise. While some of the rebels do indeed hide their faces, most of them do not. In fact, there seem to be much more balaclaved faces among the pro-government troops. And this is easily understandable. The whole balaclava fashion, which is totally disgusting, because its goal is to provide anonymity to violence, so this whole fashion was introduced and initiated by ” peaceful protestors” in Kiev. And in fact it was practiced for a number of years by Ukrainian neo-Nazis. Again, all this is easy to verify. Just google up and look under the images. So these “balaclaved thugs” peaceful protesters went on now to form pro-government military detachments, which are in fact the main fighting force in the East Ukraine. Here are two typical photos:
/85437/helicopters-ukraine-sloviansk at time dot com – pro-government army
/en/20140510-separatists-detain-red-cross-staff-east-ukraine-spying/ on france24 dot com

Next time, please, do your search before posting your opinion.
Thank you.

Jul 02, 2014 2:05pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@BraveNewWrld – does it ever enter your mind that you are being highly selective and naive with your facts?

You are certainly living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that “one of few ways to get a really unbiased view” is through a Google search.

Do you genuinely not know that Google’s search results can, and are, manipulated?

What’s stopping those images being Google Bombs? I.e., specific results for the search of “East Ukraine rebels” being deliberately made more popular, and therefore at the top?

The rule of thumb for Putin is; if he can, he will, and he does. It clearly stands to reason than it would be the Kremlin’s interests to Google Bomb positive images of their “rebels.” Therefore you can be pretty sure that they have.

Are you genuinely so gullible to rely on something so easily manipulated though?

If so, I pity you.

Jul 02, 2014 2:59pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
111Dave111 wrote:

Mr. Poroshenko – please, just continue it! Continue killing Cossacks, your own Cossack provocateurs and traitors, draining their blood.

Jul 02, 2014 3:07pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
bravo-six wrote:

Is anyone paying attention to what Russia has said about Moldovas and Georgia’s inquiry in the EU? seems a bit similar to the stance in Ukraine…Transdniestria in Moldova is strangely similar to what the donbass region in Ukraine has and ultimately will become…

when it comes to Russia I guess its all just a simple conincidence…

Jul 02, 2014 3:51pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
xcanada2 wrote:

@JackHerer: You can count me as another of your suspected Kremlin bots.

“Does anyone who has ever been close to you think you are paranoid?”

I encountered many remarkably positive aspects of Russian culture, during perhaps ten professional visits there. But, perhaps what most impressed me was the common humanity, and the humility of so many of the people I go to know there.

I wonder what happened to you?

Jul 02, 2014 3:52pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

@JackHerrer wrote:
It clearly stands to reason than it would be the Kremlin’s interests to Google Bomb positive images of their “rebels.”

Putin here, Putin there, Kremlin paid trolls, Google bombs, …
You say I am possessed by conspiracy theories? :)

Man, your mind is seriously messed up…

Jul 02, 2014 3:53pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
xcanada2 wrote:

@JackHerer,

The way I see it, Putin appears as promoter of realistic peace, and people such as yourself as promoters of confrontation and death.

Even the US wouldn’t let Bolton be our UN ambassador, and for good reasons. Probably you would have have been disqualified for similar reasons.

Jul 02, 2014 4:04pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

BraveNewWrld – dude, I’m not the one tirelessly defending a corrupt foreign regime.

I mean your position doesn’t waver from that of the Kremlin. Don’t you find that a little odd yourself? At the very least, it’s incredibly naive.

You still haven’t explained your bizarrely extreme hypocrisy regarding your comments on Assad, and those on Poroshenko, for instance.

The very clear logical conclusion is that you are either a pliant moron, or a paid Putin stooge.

If you can explain why that’s not the case, without resorting to easily manipulated Google searches, or some fantastical blanket Western media conspiracy, then I’m all ears.

Failing that however, people will rightly put you down as one of those two categories.

No paranoia required, just simple reasoning.

Hope that helps :)

Jul 02, 2014 4:24pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
deadterrorist wrote:

JackHerer is seriously messed up. Wherever you go Putin this Assad that. And what is that advanced military hardware? Kalashnikovs? 1950s era SKS rifles? A few stolen MANPADS? Or that rusted T-64 that Ukraine has thousands of in storage?

Jul 02, 2014 4:27pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@xcanada2 – thanks for throwing your name into the hat, but I already had you down :)

Your complete unwavering support for Putin is clearly strange either way.

Do you genuinely see him as a good leader? Someone who stands up for decency and humanity at all costs?

If so, how do you explain his arming and defending of Assad, among other oppressive and corrupt actions?

Or has his bear wrestling simply blinded you against his negative sides?

Jul 02, 2014 4:39pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@deadterrorist – you missed out Israel. I like to air my mind on their selfish actions too.

And of course, as my name clearly suggests, I’m not adverse to campaigning for change to the cannabis laws.

I’m intrigued though; in your head, are Assad and Putin the good guys?

Presumably for that, you need a blanket conspiracy against all Western media, and obviously vast swathes of seemingly decent organisations such as Reporters Without Borders, Amnesty and the U.N.?

I hate to be the one to tell you this therefore, but believing that everything is a big Western conspiracy isn’t exactly mainstream thinking.

Jul 02, 2014 4:51pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
JackHerer wrote:

@xcanada2 – of course that’s the way you see it, because that’s exactly the way that the Kremlin sees it.

The two never waver mysteriously.

Jul 02, 2014 5:01pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
UauS wrote:

“The document said Russia made a commitment…” – didn’t Russia already make a commitment once before?

“The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”
Ukraine. Memorandum on Security Assurances
Budapest, 5 December 1994
Source: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

So how many more lies from Russia should the West swallow before it wakes up to reality?

Jul 02, 2014 5:02pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
ProUK wrote:

@xcanada2 “I encountered many remarkably positive aspects of Russian culture, during perhaps ten professional visits there. But, perhaps what most impressed me was the common humanity, and the humility of so many of the people I go to know there”.

Culture and government are two different things. I have lived there over ten years and feel a little bit more qualified to speak of this.

Jul 02, 2014 5:25pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
carlmartel wrote:

“Separatists fired a shoulder-launched missile that struck and damaged a Ukrainian Su-24 attack plane.” That makes the 5th report of MANPADs, MAN Portable Air Defense missiles, used by east Ukraine. A Reuters article on April 16 with photos reveals the surrender of part of the 25th Airborne Armored Brigade at Slaviansk that would have had MANPADs. Another part of the 25th Brigade split at Kramatorsk with half switching sides to join the rebels and the other half, including the artillery that would have had MANPADs, remaining loyal to Kiev. Go to Google and look up TO&E, Ukraine Army and find the 25th Brigade that reveals an air defense artillery battalion that would have split into sections to provide air defense to each unit of the 25th Brigade going near the Russian border because Russia has an air force and helicopter gunships. An educated estimate of the missiles captured is 12 to 24, so 7 to 19 remain in rebel hands. One was used at Luhansk on June 14, but the distance between Slaviansk and Luhansk is only 100 miles, and the rebels had two months to redistribute some of them. No nation with a national airline, such as Russia’s Aeroflot would permit MANPADs in general circulation because they can take down civilian airliners.

The US created the first problem of this sort in Afghanistan when we supplied Afghan rebels with stinger missiles to fight Russian planes and helicopters. After the Russian withdrawal in 1989, some rebel leaders were not eager to return the missiles. Kiev may have similar problems in east Ukraine if they win their war.

On that point, Kiev discovered that they had 6,000 effectives at the start of the conflict out of 41,000 on payrolls. The other 35,000 paychecks probably went to generals, defense ministry officials, and Yanukovich, and the generals and defense ministry officials remain in office. Kiev hastily conscripted new “troops,” gave them a month of training, and sent them to the east. I have often pointed out that the photos prove that Kiev’s “troops” are warm bodies in uniforms who carry weapons, but they are not soldiers. I point out specific details to prove their incompetence whenever photos appear. This makes it unlikely that Kiev will win this war in the near future.

Jul 02, 2014 6:44pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
xcanada2 wrote:

@JackHerer,

What I see is an American Government which is seriously off the track of fairness and respect for the people of the world, us included. There are numerous examples, but perhaps the simplest for people to see, was the Bush Jr. attack on Iraq under false principles. To me, it was completely clear even before it began, that the whole effort was based on trumped-up propaganda. Vietnam is a similar case, and I was against that before it started.

We need not review the whole litany of phony US interventions in the world leading to millions of deaths.

What Putin did is claw back Russia control from the international capitalist oligarchs, and at least show some concern for the Russian people. That is my impression. Before Putin, Russia was a lawless morass with no hope of home control, maybe even with no hope for preservation of their quite advanced culture.

Its not that I am an unwavering supporter of Putin and Russia. It’s just that we have way more than enough Russia/Putin detractors. It appears to me that Putin and Russia is one power center standing up to the American government policies of domination and death. Basically, I highly value and support a multi-polar world. The American leadership is completely at odds to this. Almost all the professed values of America are being trod upon, in the present system of government by the corporations and special interests. Hegemony is manifestly not democracy.

Similarly, as regards Assad. I don’t know how true the original charges against him of murdering peaceful democracy protesters. I, of course, am suspicious of CIA involvement, as we know is the case in multiple other instances. At this point, the mayhem and death brought on Syrians and now another round for Iraq, perpetrated by ISIL/ISIS types which we have either supported through Saudi Arabia/Quatar, or with direct weapons support, is much worse than anything that would have originally happened with Assad. Moreover, the whole red-line-in-the-sand was an obvious gift and setup in favor of the forces against Assad. And, it is pretty clear what the real problem with Assad was: He wasn’t rolling over for Israel, he is friends with Iran, and Turkey/US saw a way to step back into ME domination.

The immoral, “realist”, capitalist-morality-based get-as-much-as-you-can approach of the US government is becoming a manifest failure for all to see. We are after all, only 5% of the world population, and corruption of the US government is even becoming clear to the American people. The brainwashing of America by Madison Avenue, Hollywood, and the flawed MSM, only goes so far, fortunately. If a person really loves and supports the stated ideals and values of America, he will be against the present military/capitalist/exceptionalist attack people who run our government.

There are a number of huge problems faced by the people of the world, and the US is standing in the way of their solution, through its continuing creation of discord and mayhem. Are humans really so unsuitable for life in a technological world, that they will simply fail like buffalo being chased over the cliff?

People in China and Russia are actually working on projects which address common problems on mankind, and we Americans have our extra bucks spent on military-intelligence projects, (and equally on a phony ripoff-health industry). The banks and stock market get bailed out, and the working people’s problem ignored as if workers are no longer a needed commodity. Actual research, development, and investment in projects to benefit mankind are side-tracked. The American political situation is dismal.

Jul 02, 2014 6:45pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Hahahappy wrote:

JackHerer must get payed by the word.

Jul 02, 2014 6:45pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
pyradius wrote:

That’s right, the same Russian sycophants that comment here daily are right and the entire rest of the world that rejects your skewed worldviews are wrong. Thank you, RT affiliates for clearing that up.

Jul 02, 2014 8:55pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
BraveNewWrld wrote:

JackHerer wrote:
BraveNewWrld – dude, I’m not the one tirelessly defending a corrupt foreign regime. I mean your position doesn’t waver from that of the Kremlin

Thank you for informing me on that. You know, I frankly cannot care less about what is the official position of some foreign regime, or what Putin thinks about this or about that. I therefore do not follow that position closely – I get most of news coverage here on Reuters, less frequently look it up on BBC and RT. So I would certainly trust your judgement as to the agreement of my opinions with those you call “position of Kremlin”. What can I say here? Only one thing: good for Kremlin. It would also serve you well to check the chronology of my opinions expressed here and those that became the “official Kremlin position”. In some cases at least, I could have been substantially ahead of the wave! May be, I am Putin himself? Or, may be I am one Kremlin propagandists?
And, BTW, – have you checked under your bed before going to sleep – there is no Putin there? The symptoms I see in your posts are those of CPS – Cerebral Putin Syndrome. Patients are known to develop associative connections of all events related to Russia with an imaginary Putin living in their brain. Ship sinks – Putin’s fault. Ship did not sink – shrewd Putin avoided the blame he deserves for ship sinking, which was certain to happen.

You say you looked up my past posts. Do I often even mention Putin, Kremlin, Russian Government, justify their political actions/decisions? The answer is -NOT. You know why? Because I do not care! My opinion is my opinion, and if Putin and Kremlin issue official statement that 2*2=4, I see no reason to withdraw my personal support of this fact! Because I do not see much significance in this “strange coincidence” you mention.

Finally, your Syria Assad question. I actually addressed it in some past posts – go read. The punchline is simple – I am against all and any revolutions and revolutionaries. There has been an attempted revolution in Syria by “peaceful protestors” – many of whom were actually armed, much like in Kiev, Ukraine. Again, I refer you to Google the corresponding photographs, which in both cases I saw on BBC (perhaps, it was a BBC-Google bomb :). Damned revolutionaries did not win – the Government survived, but still plunged their beautiful country into a fratricidal civil war. In Ukraine the damned revolutionaries won, but the result is the same. Perhaps, you might look up my earlier comments on Lybia – which point out same theme. They also make certain predictions for the future, some of which may be now checked. What a prophet I was. Except I was not a prophet but captain triviality. It was totally obvious what is going to happen, and it happened indeed.

So to wrap it up – I repeat my sincere advise to all those revolutionary fighters who are ready and willing to sacrifice their lives for our bright future. Go kill yourself – mission accomplished! Your life sacrificed, and better future for the rest will certainly come in your absence!

Jul 02, 2014 10:18pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
Hahahappy wrote:

Hong Kong is next on the CIA hit list…

Jul 02, 2014 11:59pm EDT  --  Report as abuse
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